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This is what I have been taught also. It couldn't be more clear.

This is a clear cut case of nationalism. Ukrainian first, religion second. If these people took Orthodoxy seriously, the Serbian or OCA churches should do just fine.

Always good to have a new convert's perspective [theoniondome.com] , I suppose.

Excommunicating someone for the offense of receiving Communion sounds a tad self-defeating. But then, at my advanced age, i well remember when state power was used to compel the Greek-Catholics to receive Holy Communion from the Orthodox, and I can't seem to recall any Orthodox complaining about this, or asserting that it was improper, even intolerable, to give this Catholics Holy Communion under such circumstances.

So it goes.

Fr. Serge

I think that this is probaby what happened. His flesh may have acted in disobedience, but his heart acted in love.

As I understand it, we are not allowed to commune as a matter of discipline because unity has not yet been established. I respect that and honour it because of the spiritual discipline of 'ipakoui' or 'obedience'.

I must say that in reading posts on this topic, the outrage sometimes sounds as if the Bishop has committed a sin equal to publicly accepting Mohammed as God's prophet after Christ or denouncing Christ as God's Son!

In my own humble opinion, I believe that the only sin he is really guilty of is lack of obedience to his spiritual authority.

If one wants to think past the boundaries of laws and 'obedience', and on a more philosophical level, and since the analogy of Holy Communion as partaking of the Holy Table of the Lord with our brothers and sisters has been made many times by Priests, one might think of this instance as a visit in another's home (which it was), and a guest would not insult one's host at his home by not dining at his table with him.

I will not judge his action or be scandalized. He has a conscience and a spiritual authority. Personally, I doubt very much that such sin, in such circumstance, will condemn his soul to damnation. I have seen and heard many more true sins, true heresies, and abominations of the Orthodox faith to be scandalized by this!!

As for:


Again, I would not judge the actions of those who lived under the oppression of the atheistic communist regime, where the church survived under the most adverse conditions imaginable.
Perhaps, had these men not 'cooperated', the Church wouldn't exist at all in those countries today...After all, wasn't that the goal of the communist regime?

Just my own thoughts,
Alice

Alice,

Beautifully said.

In ICXC,

Gordo

I believe that's a rather unfair comment and an unwise comparison.

I think it's an unfair comment because the Oniondome article I think is really raising the issue of those who fall prey to pride and rampant obnoxiousness. Certainly that phenomenon exists, as does the phenomenon of laxity. Otherwise the stereotypes in the story wouldn't have the hallmark of truth. I did not find either of Etnick's comments to be obnoxious or of the "I know better than them" variety. What I think he said is basically true. I'm fairly certain that going by the canon's the bishop has effectively removed himself from the communion of the church. The canons of course have to be interpreted by the church, so it will be up to the Romanian Church to decide what penalties his actions merit. His other comment (not exactly related to the thread) is also true in my estimation, what he was pointing to is really a manifestation of an unfortunate form of phyletism.

I think it's an unwise comparison because it seems, though my interpretation could be wrong, that raising the idea of a "new converts perspective" is an attempt to basically discredit what Etnick is saying without addressing what he is saying.

I will say I believe lack of obedience to one's spiritual authority is a serious sin, and when a bishop is guilty of this it is a grave matter. It in my opinion sends a terrible and confusing message to the laity that they're free to interpret the church's teachings as they see fit, because in this case, that is what the bishop did assuming the story is accurate.

Before anyone jumps on me for the perceived defense of laxity in guarding the Holy Mysteries, let me affirm my own belief in the stance of the Apostolic Churches all around that Holy Communion is to be restricted because of the theology of what communion means in addition to its being the coming of one of us into a living relationship with Christ.

That being said, when I see these types of things or hear about them, it brings something a former pastor said to me some years ago. He was a seminary professor and deeply involved with relationships with non-Catholic Churches and ecclesial communities. He told me that the coming together of the People of God would probably not come from the authorities in each body but would be something that would start to happen among the People of God themselves. In other words, at some point, the Holy Spirit would move the people to say, "Enough."

Another of the things I wonder about.

BOB

Which is worse, a sin of disobedience or a sin against charity?


Using this analogy what should you do if father 'disowns,' one of your brothers/sisters for a disagreement that they have, and then forbids you to see them? It would certainly be a case of disobedience if you were still living under his roof, but should you disown your sibling just because he wills it?

What sin against charity would the Bishop have committed if he did not receive communion? On the other hand, his receiving communion could itself be a sin against charity since the bishop is not considering the effect it will have on his brethren and his flock.

Joe

Andrew, well said.

Joe

A Simple Sinner strikes again!

My own personal opinion is that the Bishop should have refrained from reception because of the lack of full communion, his own Church's discipline, and the potential for scandal amongst Eastern Orthodox. At present, Catholic discipline allows us to communicate Eastern Orthodox and Polish National Catholics. It is my personal opinion that this discipline is too loose, only because there is a lack of full communion.

In Christ,
Dn. Robert

Certainly among Catholics and Orthodox, Enough!
Let us begin to live in true unity, faith and love.
Stephanos I

Dear Father Deacon,

You are certainly entitled to your personal opinion - particularly so in this case because some weighty authorities can be cited in support of that opinion. Please keep in mind, however, that those who hold the contrary opinion are also entitled to do so, and can also cite some weighty authorities and arguments.

Fr. Serge