www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Catholic looking into Eastern Orthodox - need help

I've been on the same journey. This was my first Pascha in the Orthodox fold, and it was the best! Many blessings, and good luck! Feel free to write back if you want to compare notes.

What kind of Protestant? Were you a Protestant priest?

It ADVOCATES them? As in encouraging, recommending, extolling, etc.? I am more than just surprised, because most of the members of my parish are among the most ardent opponents of choice I have ever known. Compared to them, Pope Benedict looks wishy-washy on the subject.

Father Stephanos,

Can you provide the title of this Orthodox Catechism? I would be curious who published such a thing...

God bless,

Gordo

I hope I don't get my head bitten off here but the OCA, GOA and AOC all allow invitro. They require all embyros to be implanted but they do allow it. You can find this on the websites.

I'm not sure that there is consensus among the Orthodox regarding in vitro so this would not surprise me.

Joe

Hmmm...more women get invitro today than ever. What a shame..our culture (sexuality, careers, late marriage) has made it difficult for married women to conceive...

One of the top obstetricians and leaders of in vitro fertilization in the 1980's where I live (he delivered one of my children) was a devout, fatherly, compassionate and good Roman Catholic man with a very large family. He would not perform abortions, but must have thought that he was doing something good with in-vitro fertilization...

In today's strange scientific new world, the boundaries of ethical and non-ethical are very, very blurry. I am sure that, rather than see a woman mourn her infertility and inability to have a child, that the compassionate thing, for many clerics, doctors, and theologians, Orthodox and/or Roman Catholic, is to allow for in vitro fertilization...

Would anyone here be able to prohibit their daughters from having this procedure, if she and her husband were desperately trying to have a child of their own for years, with all the requisite tears and prayers that go with that desperation???

I pray that none of us will ever face that scenario, but statistics tell us that we may... so, if we are truly honest with ourselves, I think that we know in our hearts what the answer to that might be.

May the Lord have mercy on us all...because our modern day freedoms, our liberal thoughts and lifestyles, our cultures, and our scientific knowledge have not helped us, but rather, they have destroyed us.

Alice

Alice,

I agree with all that you have said. It is a complicated issue and I think that this is precisely why we have no defined doctrine in the same sense that the Vatican has its teaching on this issue set in stone.

If someone wants a strict, and defined, teaching on in vitro and contraception, then they might do better to look into the Catholic Church with its more developed teaching on natural law. On the other hand, Orthodoxy might be preferable for one who favors a more flexible approach on these issues.

For myself, I am not convinced that the Roman Catholic Church's teaching on these issues is entirely correct, so I am satisfied with the more ambiguous and ambivalent state of things in Orthodoxy. One thing is clear though. The Orthodox Church opposes any method of conception that necessitates the destruction of embryos. So, even if in vitro is permissible, it is only permissible provided that it does not result in the destruction of any embryos.

Joe

Nor is it actually the practice as I've seen it. Of two couples I know from AOC parishes they both were given the go from their priest without the "all must be used requirement"... well let me be specific: one couple was told that they could do it as long as they made sure the unused portion was given to people who couldn't conceive. I'm more of the opinion that that is more Franken-science than the more common total use requirement.
This of course goes into the official jurisdictional decree versus what one or two priests decide to do category, but I thought it worthy of note.

Poppycock!!! That is a scandalous thing to say!!! Who has taken responsibility for such a "catechism"?
It is NOT a fact!!!

Back in the early 2000�s, Bishop Joseph had a special retreat for his priests on ethical issues and modern technology.

Our Orthodox Priest returned from that retreat and said that abortion is murder and that infertility methods employing invitro fertilization are unethical. In addition to the unnatural environment, he said that studies have shown that children born using invitro fertilization have more health complications than those conceived naturally, especially those who were frozen and held in storage. The technology is still too new. It was also mentioned that there seems to be an increased cancer risk in those children due to all the drugs administered.

What really bothered the priest was the fact that many unborn children who are held in storage pending implantation are systematically destroyed (murdered) with some parents not even being given an option.

Surrogate parenthood is not ethical either. Allowing it raises issues about convenience and selfishness among women who are healthy and fertile. It is simply not natural. Young unmarried women should not be used as wombs for rent.

We may be swaying too far into the realm of seeking a church that conforms to our own pre-conceived opinions. While we may disagree on which of various entities consitute(s) the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, I'm not sure that the simple fact that one of those entities more closely conforms to one's own pre-conceived opinions means much. It would seem that we should seek out the teachings of the Church - not seek out a church that mirrors our own opinions.

Just my thoughts.

Felix

Keithg29,

Just so you know, Orthodox Catechisms, no matter what is contained therein, do not contain the same weight as a document such as the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Many of them exist and many have been approved by one or more bishops. That being said, they are more like commentaries on the Catechism of the Catholic Church than they are its equivalent in authority.
I was not sure if you were aware of that.

Felix

Maybe we could ask Father for a citation rather than assert that what he says is false?

I will agree with 'A Simple Sinner' that Father 'Stephanos I' needs to provide the reference (including the title, date of publication and approving bishop) and a lengthy quote so the Forum community can better understand.

I will disagree with 'A Simple Sinner' that one need wait until Father 'Stephanos I' provides such a quote before labeling it false. Orthodoxy is very Pro-Life and is uniform in condemning abortion as a moral evil. Someone making such a provocative statement needs to provide the support when they make the statement.