www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Need help in grasping Liturical rubrics

Dear Brothers and Sister in the Lord"
Glory be to Jeus Christ, Glory forever.

I have been trying to figure some things out regarding the Divine Liturgy as experinced in the Ukrainian and Ruthenian Catholic Churches; having talked to a few priests who answers were not consistant with one another, I am left a bit more confounded.
I know the answers to these questions from a Greek/Russian Orthodox understanding.

Here are some of my questions.

1. Why do some priests/deacons add hot water into the cup which contains the preacious blood of our Lord, and others say this is not to be done?
2. Some priest during the preparation of the second Lamb which will be used for a presanctified Liturgy, add the precious blood to it,and others say no this is not truly our custom in the Ukrainian Catholic Church.
3. Some of the Priests/deacons mention the Pope, their Patriarch, or Major Archbiship, and finally their own bishop/yetsome don't. Is it not ok just to remember one's own bishop unless the Bishop himself is the Main Celebrant at a Divine Liturgy in his own Diocese?
4.For Ukrainian Catholis in the USA. What Gospel and Epistle books are approved for use? I gave a priest a brand new copy of a Apostlos from St.Tikons, and he never used it. When I asked why, he said it was not from the Catholic Church.
Is their a complete english version of the Ordo Celebraciones? I have an old Copy, which is mostly in English except when it say, for example.."now the priest says or does such and such", which is in Slavanic. Are there other books of rubrics?
5.There really is no standard universal way of celebrating the Divine Liturgy or other Litrugies is there?
Thanks for your help,
Love in Christ,
Deacon Joseph

Deacon Joseph:

Christ is Risen!! Indeed He is Risen!!

My first question to you would be, "what were you taught in your diaconal formation"? Was there no mention of what liturgical books might be used and the places to obtain them? How was your training for liturgical functioning done? The answers to your questions might reside in your answers.

The Byzantine Catholic Seminary in Pittsburgh lists an Apostolos for sale. Did you ever check that place as a source?

In Christ,

BOB

Welcome, Deacon Joseph, to the Forum. Others will surely post more information but I can offer brief answers to the questions to get the discussion started. I will say up front that they are brief and certainly not exhaustive. Some of these questions could develop into individual threads.

Q1. Why do some priests/deacons add hot water into the cup which contains the precious blood of our Lord, and others say this is not to be done?

A1. Zeon or teplota is proper to the Divine Liturgy. Some Byzantine (Greek) Catholic priests use it and some do not. I suspect a good treatise can be written about it. Some who do not use it never learned about it, or were told it wasn�t worth the bother. Some � after generations of its use being forgotten by Greek Catholics � thought it was an Orthodox custom they should not imitate because they were Catholic.

Q2. Some priest during the preparation of the second Lamb which will be used for a presanctified Liturgy, add the precious blood to it, and others say no this is not truly our custom in the Ukrainian Catholic Church.

A2. Both customs exist. I don�t have the time to research the exact rubric in the official Slavonic books, but I am sure someone will respond over the weekend with a reference.

Q3. Some of the Priests/deacons mention the Pope, their Patriarch, or Major Archbishop, and finally their own bishop/yet some don't. Is it not ok just to remember one's own bishop unless the Bishop himself is the Main Celebrant at a Divine Liturgy in his own Diocese?

A3. There are several ways of doing commemorations. One custom is to mention your local bishop, then your local bishop prays for his Metropolitan or Patriarch, and the Patriarch prays for his elder brother, the pope. I believe the official Ruthenian books list the commemorations for the pope and bishop. A local bishop can direct how he wishes the commemorations to be taken or allow freedom to the individual priest.

Q4. For Ukrainian Catholics in the USA. What Gospel and Epistle books are approved for use? I gave a priest a brand new copy of a Apostlos from St.Tikons, and he never used it. When I asked why, he said it was not from the Catholic Church.

A4. As far as I know there are no mandated versions of the Apostol and Gospel Books, but there could be. Different local eparchies probably have recommended or even approved versions. Not sure why anyone would expect uniformity.

As far as the St. Tikhon�s Gospel book, I don�t have it in my collection and can�t comment. If it is based upon the KJV or NKJV some will not use it. But if it based on the RSV there would not be a problem.

Yes, there are quite a few Greek / Byzantine Catholic clergy (and laity) who are anti-Orthodox. That is wrong, but not unexpected. In Europe during the Communist period Greek Catholic parishes were often seized and given to the Orthodox Church. In America there were splits in the Church over the married priest issue, with many returning to Orthodoxy. It takes a moment to hurt and generations to heal.

Q4A. Is their a complete english version of the Ordo Celebraciones? I have an old Copy, which is mostly in English except when it say, for example.."now the priest says or does such and such", which is in Slavanic. Are there other books of rubrics?

A4A. Eastern Christian Publications sells �Ordo Celebrationis� Price: $20.00 USD #L11. Their website is ecpubs.com. It has the liturgical text references in English.

Q5.There really is no standard universal way of celebrating the Divine Liturgy or other Liturgies is there?

A5. Yes. It is given in the official Slavonic editions with the �Ordo Celebrationis� giving additional detailed rubrics. It is highly abbreviated in some places and even some Liturgicons are not totally correct (and some were prepared with other ideas). In 2006 the Ukrainian Synod made the official Liturgical Books of the Ruthenian Recension normative. But that does not mean they are followed everywhere. It will likely take a generation for the standard of liturgical celebration to rise closer to the normative.

Welcome to life in the Greek Catholic Church!

John

My first question to you would be, "what were you taught in your diaconal formation"? Was there no mention of what liturgical books might be used and the places to obtain them? How was your training for liturgical functioning done? The answers to your questions might reside in your answers.

I did not recieve my formation in an Eastern Catholic Formation Program. I am presently a Latin Catholic.

Dear John:

Thanks so much for offering your time and knowledge regarding my questions. I would like to point out that you also were very kind an polite, the kind of answer I should expect from practicing Catholic Christian. God Bless you for your meekness and Charity.

Peace and Blessing,
Deacon Joseph.
ps. I truly love the Byzaintine Divine Liturgies, especially when there is great choir and chanters.

Dear Father Deacon,

Christ is Risen!

Please accept a warm welcome and my condolences! Seeking for uniformity of liturgical practice among the Greek-Catholics is worse than hunting for the proverbial needle in the haystack - since one does hope that the needle exists and is to be found somewhere in that particular haystack.

Liturgical uniformity has never existed among Greek-Catholic (let alone Eastern Orthodox) and probably never will - in part because some variety adds to the beauty and richness of the Church, in part because local traditions can be quiet strong, and in part because strong influences come from several different directions at the same time.

The best advice I can offer you is to learn as much as you can and also relax and go with the flow!

On the hot water (zeon/teplota) issue, I suggest Father Robert Taft's volume on the Pre-Communion Rites.

In general, I suggest the Liturgical Instruction promulgated by the Holy See ten years or so ago.

Fr. Serge

I've been reading the Papal encyclicals on the eastern churches. In one of them it notes that this is the practice of some, but not all, of the byzantine churches.

hawk

Glory to Him forever! Slava na viki!

Welcome, Fr. Deacon. John has answered well to your questions and I will not be redundant. Regardless of private opinions, the Synod of the Hierarchy of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (UGCC) has made several liturgical documents obligatory for the entire UGCC. These are the Ordo Celebrationis, the Instruction from Rome, and the Vatican II document Sacrosanctum Concilium.

The first two, as John mentions, are available from Eastern Christian Publications. The Ordo is available in two versions, one referencing Slavonic liturgical texts (the older translation by Fr. Berko), and the other more recent publication referencing English texts of the Liturgikon by Jack Figel and Fr. Serge. Sacrosanctum Concilium can be easily found on the 'Net or in any collection of Vatican II documents.

Other than that, there are two "official" texts of the Liturgikon in English, one approved by the entire Synod in 1988, often referred to as the "Synodal" Liturgikon; and a later version approved only within the Eparchy of St. Josaphat (Parma, USA).

The fabulous pew book The Divine Liturgy: An Anthology for Worship uses the Synodal text, and the Synodal text has far and away become the standard English text for the Divine Liturgy in North America.

In Ukrainian there are several versions of the Liturgikon as well; more notable versions include that of Patriarch Josyp of 1968; the Synodal text of 1988; and that of the Archeparchy of L'viv published in 1996 which is essentially a reprint and re-typesetting of Patriarch Josyp's with a few minor changes. And those are just the basics. I won't even get into other specific texts for Vespers and Matins or the Euchologion.

There is no standard lectionary translation in English. In the parish and missions I serve for example, four out of the five still use Bishop Fan Noli's English translations from the Greek from the 1950s, which you will still see used as the English translation in some UGCC and Ukrainain Orthodox parishes. In fact I just bought another set of Noli books from a retired Ukrainian Orthodox priest friend who used them until his retirement at his UOC parish.

The other of the five uses the Holy Cross Apostolos by choice, even though this community still has the Byzantine Seminary Press NAB translation book as well. The aversion to using Orthodox texts is strange, and not at all universal or even common anymore; compared to the NAB I would take another Orthodox version quickly if given the choice.
Fr. Deacon Randolph L. Brown ("Diak").

Dochawk, do you perhaps mean some of the other non-Byzantine Eastern Catholic Churches (Maronite, Syrian, Coptic, Malabar, Malankar, etc.)?

I know there are several, which I can't enumerate.

The Melchites, though, already have a patriarch, one of the five Great Patriarchs. It would seem that evin if a sui juris Melchite church were to be createded in the Americas, he would remain their Great Patriarch, while the various byzantine groups (should) have the EP of Constantinople.

hawk

As it happens, the Melkites are themselves a Byzantine group.

Fr. Serge

OK,then *is* there a term that distinguishes them as having their own Great Patriarch (as opposed to the EP)?

hawk

The term "Great Patriarch" is not found in the canonical tradition, although certain individual Patriarchs are called "Great" by the Church historian - Pope Saint Leo the Great and Pope Saint Gregory the Great come to mind. There are currently efforts to give this honor to John Paul II.

Fr. Serge