www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Old-Ritualists Forum Old-Ritualists and Greek-Catholics

The idea of the "monarchical episcopate" goes back all the way to Saint Ignatius of Antioch. Still, the authority of the bishop is ultimately paternal and iconic.

Fr. Serge

Thank you for that wonderful story, brat' Kolya.

considering that Slavic Greek Catholics came back into union with Rome before the changes to the Russian Church, have the Greek Catholics re-tained anything that is considered "Old-Ritual?"

Back into union with Rome?????? We Orthodox don't look at it that way.
If you want to mention the Ukrainian Catholic Church in Halychana, this area only became Catholic after the third partition of Poland long after the Russian Orthodox Council of 1666/67.

Also remember that there was a Metropolitan of Kyiv for Ukraine and a Patriach of Moscow for Russia.

As far as the Russian-Catholic Church is concerned, we may
celebrate as Nikonians or pre-Nikonians, but may not mix and
match. As far as I know (which isn't very far) we do not
at this time have any pre-Nikonians among us.

Edmac

So far as I am aware, the only "full-time" Old-Ritualist Greek-Catholic clergy currently functioning are in Russia. There are a few priests here in there in the Greek-Catholic diaspora who use the Old Rite on an occasional basis.

"Have the Greek-Catholics retained anything of the Old Rite?" Yes. The easiest way to confirm this is to compare the two sets of service-books.

Attention Miller:

While I would hardly expect an Eastern Orthodox writer to consider that "Slavic Greek Catholics came back into union with Rome" your objection is, shall we say, a bit strenuous and leads me to think that you are, perhaps, unsure of your own position. A word of four letters which is not normally considered vulgar or obscene ("back") hardly warrants six interrogation marks one after the other! Moreover:

a) the term "Ukrainian Catholic Church" was not and is not used in Galicia. The Orthodox of Galicia who remained within the Ecumenical Patriarchate until c. 1700 had nothing at all to do with the questionable "Russian Orthodox Council of 1666/67" and there is nothing at all to indicate that anything in liturgical practice was changed in Galicia because of that assembly.

b) If you insist on using a transliteration of the Ukrainian term for the territory instead of the normal "Galicia", the very least you might do is spell it accurately. There was not and is not any place called "Halychana".

Yes, there was a Patriarch of Moscow in, of all places, Muscovy. This was a development of the late 16th century. There was still a Metropolitan of Kyiv and All Rus', but nothing in either his title or his jurisdiction indicates that he was Metropolitan only for Ukraine; he certainly exercised jurisdiction in Belarus' at the time. Studies are available from Ukrainian Orthodox sources which will tell you just how the Patriarchate of Moscow came into being. I trust that you read Ukrainian.

Since this really has next to nothing to do with the Old Ritualists (save that Bielaia Krinitsa is located in Bukovyna), might I be so bold as to suggest that intramural Ukrainian polemics belong on another thread of the Forum?

Fr. Serge

However, the Old Ritualists in Bukovyna, Ukraine were not local Ukrainians but ethnic Russians who emigrated to the area.
There are similar groups in Poland and in other places.

Since the Old Ritualists did not displace anyone in Bukovyna, and have been there for some 300 years, and are now Ukrainian citizens, there's not much room to challenge their civil status!

Fr. Serge