www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Have We Received the Schism?

Have I visited Damascus, and am I aware of Eucharistic hospitality and sharing their? Yes.

Do I care to provide details? No. It would be a poor return for hospitality (of any kind) to expose my hosts to an international polemic.

Fr. Serge

Ghosty,

How do the Orthodox hold on to the Apostolic Faith, from a Catholic point of view, when they deny what Catholics consider to be truths of the Faith, handed down from the Apostles?

Alexis

What such "truths" do you accuse the Orthodox of denying?

Fr. Serge

Let us recall that the Catholic Church invites Orthodox believers
to communiate if they have the need and desire to do so. What that works out to ultimately is that the Catholic Church considers that that there is no ESSENTIAL difference between Catholicism and Orthodox. Some will
deny this, perhaps violently, on both sides. Catholics doing so
will not have a leg to stand on. As for the Orthodox: since there
is not a person on God's green earth who can speak with authority for Orthodoxy, there's no point asking.

Marian: Forgive me if I misunderstood you, but you did say that the actions of the Papal Nuncio were "more serious" than the "very grave" actions of the Orthodox Bishop. You said:
From this I gathered that you believe that the actions of the nuncio are worse than the violation of the Orthodox canons by the Bishop. You also said that this indicates some kind of underhanded approach towards the Orthodox on the part of Rome. If that's not a crime, or an insult, I don't know what is.

The "unhealthy" fixation I referred to is simply that you seemed to be placing blame on the Catholics, when in fact the nuncio did nothing but respect the Bishop as a Bishop, as a representative of Christ, and when he approached the Eucharist it was given to him. That action by the nuncio is enforced by the Canons of the Catholic Churches, not as an insult towards Eastern Orthodox, but as a recognition of the Sacramental unity that exists, however obscured by our ecclesial relations, by virtue of the fact that the Body and Blood of Christ is truly shared in Orthodox as well as Catholic Liturgies.

If it was simply a matter of unscrupulous expansion, to use your words, then ALL Christians would be welcomed to the Eucharist at Catholic Liturgies. The fact is, however, that Protestants and other non-Apostolic Christians (non-Orthodox) are NOT welcomed, and in fact explicit instructions are given at Liturgies that they are not allowed to share in the Eucharist with us. The Orthodox, however, are allowed. This is only because you are viewed as being one with us on a Sacramental level that goes beyond Church politics, not because we seek to "expand" and take Orthodox away from the Faith.

Again, I'm sorry if I misunderstood your posts. I understand that you are a dedicated Orthodox person, and only want to uphold the Faith as you see it. I just hope that you can understand that such actions by Catholics do not indicate an attempt at expansion, but a humble sharing of Christ with those whom we have no right to deny.

Peace and God bless!

Some Orthodox deny aspects of the Faith, no doubt (same can be said of Catholics). Most of them that I know, however, don't. Those that approach a Catholic minister for Communion clearly don't deny anything of the Faith, and obviously don't have the hostility towards Catholic expressions that other Orthodox might. If they have some difficulties with how the Catholic Church operates, they don't let that hinder their belief that we are Sacramentally united, and obviously don't view "uniquely" Catholic approaches as heretical, so how can I say that they don't uphold the same Faith?

Even those Orthodox who don't openly believe in such unity don't necessarily fundamentally deny it. Most of them simply believe what they've been told to believe, which is often an erroneous picture of the Catholic Church that even most Catholics would reject. Such people can't be faulted for opposing something that any good Catholic should opposed, even if it's wrongly attributed to us.

Peace and God bless!

The Catholic Church holds that the Pope of Rome has immediate, universal, and supreme jurisdiction over the whole Church. According to the Catholic Church, this is a defined dogma of the faith. The Orthodox Church denies this teaching and holds that the papal teaching (as articulated by Vatican I and Vatican II) departs from the apostolic faith.

In light of this, I think that Alexis is right, that we do not share the same faith. We may share 75-90% of the same faith, but we do not share entirely the same faith. Hence, for an Orthodox bishop to commune in a Catholic Church is for that bishop to implicitly acknowledge that the faith of Catholics is truly the entire apostolic faith.

I would also point out that if submission to the papacy is not necessary for one to receive communion, then no one should criticize dissident Catholics who reject papal authority.

Joe

This thread leads me to ask this question, "how much unity in matters of doctrine and discipline is necessary to commune in the Catholic Church?" For example, if Orthodox Christians who deny papal authority, who (possibly) practice contraception, and who deny other Catholic dogmas such as purgatory and the immaculate conception, are permitted (perhaps even encouraged) to receive communion in a Roman Catholic Church, then why should Roman Catholic laity feel obliged to believe anything different from what the Orthodox believe? Why can't Catholic laity deny papal authority and practice contraception and still receive communion when their Orthodox brothers and sisters can do so?

The problem I have with the Catholic practice of admitting Orthodox to communion is that it muddies the waters and actually does a disservice to true ecumenism. The Catholic Church, by doing this, is implicitly stating that Orthodox share the same faith. And when Orthodox deny this, then the response seems to be that we really do share the same faith as the Catholics, we just don't know our faith the way the Catholic Church knows our faith. Folks, no one should be surprised if some of us Orthodox find this stance of Rome to be condescending.

Joe

I don't know how much spilled ink this topic is really worth, with all due respect. I think Eastern Byzantine Orthodox, Oriental Non-Chalcedonian Orthodox, and Assyrian Eastern Christians should be encouraged to receive Eurcharist in their own churches, and that they should follow their own churches' disciplines, which, as I understand it, generally tend to say that they should not receive Eucharist in a Catholic parish.

Agreed, Joe, that we do not have a common faith. But we do have a common valid Eucharist, and a common apostolic clergy, in the eyes of Catholicism. I gather that the Catholic Church believes that's a basis for admitting members of these churches to Eucharist, under certain conditions.

I honestly don't understand the point regarding Catholics having a right to not affirm immutable church teaching. As Catholics, they have that obligation. Orthodox are not members of the Catholic Church, are not functioning under Catholic authority, and hence do not have that obligation as an immediate day-to-day reality. I don't see the problem, theoretically, with having a differing thresshold for the admittance of people to Catholic Eucharist, depending upon whether they are Catholic or not.

But, if it makes everybody happier if Rome declares that only Catholics should receive Catholic Eucharist, I certainly have no problem with that.

Best,
Robster

It seems to me that as long we want to hold onto the old polemics there won�t be a Catholic & Orthodox reunion. Some have brought up the Orthodox canons, which is fine to do, as long as you remember that the canons aren�t an end in themselves. Economia can set aside canons for instance, and anyway the canons are not part of the tradition, are not the Word of God. The question then becomes do the canons hinder or help the Church in her mission? I don�t doubt that Christ would prefer unity around His table. Whether or not that means we have to agree on every single issue is doubtful. Papal jurisdiction, and infallibility were brought up as stumbling blocks to the Orthodox accepting the Roman Church�s invitation to communion. I cannot speak for those who believe that it should be, but I would suggest that this question is one of management, and does not pertain to the substance of faith, the deposit of faith. What should be remembered when this topic is discussed is that both are nicea-constantinople creedal confessing communities, both have apostolic succession, and valid sacraments, which means that the Holy Spirit is active in both. Well, that is my two cents.

Bob

What are the conditions, inside the RCC, for receiving the Holy Eucharist? Is true that, for partaking, a Catholic believer must share the Catholic faith? Is there such matter in Codex Canonici?

Then, is true that in Germany Catholic priests were excommunicated for partaking in a Protestant Church?

The Father Pope John Paul II worked much in the direction of peace and brotherhood. Is true that there is an issue in a certain Catholic canon or law or any document that stipulates that the giving of the Holy Eucharist is NOT encouraged to the Orthodox?

I would appreciate an answer or good resources about the Catholic canons.

I am Orthodox and so I will die. There is a division that is so sad. Certainly I would love to receive the Holy Eucharist in the Church that attends, let us say, my dear sister Pani Rose. But I cannot, all must be with blessing. There is a wound and Christ is crucified every day. Why the Pope cannot return to the primacy as was in the first centuries?

Well, I ask forgiveness.

m+

The rules for reception of the Eucharist in the Latin Church (the rules are somewhat different for different Catholic Churches) are that the Catholic must be in good standing with the Church and not in a state of sin, and the Orthodox must be free from sin and approach the Eucharist of their own free will. This is the Latin rule, but it is a good "guideline" to go from. The Canons in question are:


and


You asked:


Possibly. Protestant groups are not viewed as being the same as the Orthodox. They are understood to hold heretical beliefs, and do not have proper priests and Bishops and such. The Orthodox, in the view of the Catholic Church, are true Churches that are currently ecclesially seperated. The Orthodox are NOT viewed as heretics, and Orthodox Sacraments are totally valid from the Catholic perspective; we have no doubts that the Eucharist in an Orthodox Church is truly the Body and Blood of Christ. The relevant Canon in the Latin Catholic Church is:


We are permitted by the Catholic Church to receive the Sacraments from Orthodox when needed, though it is understood that this will not always be allowed by the Orthodox. Protestants are a totally different class, and the Catholic Church doesn't even refer to Protestant groups as Churches like it does the Orthodox.

Again, it's important to remember that these are the Canons from the Roman Catholic Church, which is not the same as the Romanian Catholic Church, or the Melkite Catholic Church, or any of the others. I used this one just because it's the easiest to find, and it's the most strict of all the Catholic Church (some Catholic Churches have open Communion with their Sister Churches).

Peace and God bless!

This may be more relevant to the original thread than the recent discussion, but I'll add it. The US Bishops issued a statement in 1996 that is usually printed inside the back cover (or on the back cover) of the Missalettes (Roman Catholic Pew Books). It can be found at: http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/q&a/mass/communion.shtml

The relevant section is:

We welcome our fellow Christians to this celebration of the Eucharist as our brothers and sisters. We pray that our common baptism and the action of the Holy Spirit in this Eucharist will draw us closer to one another and begin to dispel the sad divisions which separate us. We pray that these will lessen and finally disappear, in keeping with Christ's prayer for us "that they may all be one" (Jn 17:21).

Because Catholics believe that the celebration of the Eucharist is a sign of the reality of the oneness of faith, life, and worship, members of those churches with whom we are not yet fully united are ordinarily not admitted to Holy Communion. Eucharistic sharing in exceptional circumstances by other Christians requires permission according to the directives of the diocesan bishop and the provisions of canon law (canon 844 � 4). Members of the Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Catholic Church are urged to respect the discipline of their own Churches. According to Roman Catholic discipline, the Code of Canon Law does not object to the reception of communion by Christians of these Churches (canon 844 � 3).

More to the recent point, the Code of canons of Oriental Churches is identical to the Roman Code on this point, just with a different number. (671 instead of 844) They also both have the following section:

5. For the cases in 2, 3 and 4, norms of particular law are to be enacted only after consultation with at least the local competent authority of the non-Catholic Church or ecclesial community concerned.

Section 2 covers Catholics receiving sacraments from non-Catholic ministers, and section 4 covers situations involving the dangers of death - neither of which are applicable here.

N.B. By RCC I understand any Catholic Church, either Romano-Catholic, Greek-Catholic, etc., because all obey Father Pope and Vatican.

Within the RCC the canons are not the same? No matter if at Rome, Seattle or Timisoara?

Then, the RCC can have as canon that an Orthodox can approach, but does not she knows that an Orthodox must confess previously? Then this is forbidden by the Orthodox canons.

I sincerely believe that the Blessed Father Pope John Paul II did open gates. He was a good diplomat and a delicate Father.

What happened, Ghosty, did much turmoil. Perhaps the situation is seen differently by a RC soul or over the ocean, but here it is much turmoil.

I sincerely think that this type of inter communion must not be encouraged until the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church agree together. Orthodox Church in all her fullness, i.e. Romanian, Greek, Russian, Serbian, Holy Mount Athos, Jerusalem et al.

That Bishop was an informer of the old secret police, Ghosty, he recognized he informed over 40 years. He chose so. So many others, Ghosty, died in jails or were jailed for many years.

And this Bishop, I listened to his voice, DENIED in a first interview that he partook. He denied. Why? Then he admitted.

I say only about what I learned and know, the Greek-Catholic Church was stolen by her proprieties etc. Some Greek-Catholic priests went to jail, it is true. But others, chose to collaborate with the communists.

The most damaged Church was the Orthodox Church, many thousands of priests or believers went to jails, stolen lands etc.

It was a miracle that the Orthodox Church in Romania survived, for the regime was rough. Even so, there were baptisms, marriages, the 7 Holy Mysteries. The monastic life suffered, but became stronger and fought.

What I want to say is that this even damaged the dialog between RCC and the Orthodox Church in all her fullness.

If the RCC think that can negotiate in meetings as Ravenna etc., then she is in error.

Ravenna cannot be Ravenna without the Russian Orthodoxy, for example. Et al.

The RCC must have a unitary view regarding the steps to reunion. And all the local Catholic Churches, as the Greek-Catholic Church in Romania, MUST obey.

My beloved sister Pani Rose helped me, by simple and Christian words, not to be irrational or too much upset.

You all must agree that this division is a deep tragedy and Christ is beaten without mercy. I want a day arrive when all the Orthodox and the Catholic partake the same Holy Eucharist.

How not to partake together Pani Rose, my Melkite Sister, or near Jason, aka RomanRedneck, Romano-Catholic and all the others? But must be with blessing.

Obedience, blessing. It is simple. I sincerely think that the Catholic and the Orthodox can strengthen only together the Christianity.

Christ, family, normality, respect and love.

Now in the EU there are dark voices who want to force the nations to admit abnormal unions, children adoption for abnormal and sick people etc.

The two Churches must unite and focus on practical matters as the above mentioned. New evangelization, family values, etc.

Is not normal so?

Then, why would not be possible that the primacy be understood as in the first centuries? Then, filioque was not introduced in the Creed by a Ecumenical Synod, although the Creed was built in Ecumenical Synods.

The Byzantine Empire and the imperial Rome with their pretentions are not more. Nor a Charlemagne.

I think that the two Churches must wake up and unite in a SMART manner and defend: Christ, life, family, et al.

For this reason I was so upset, I am afraid that steps backwards were made by this event. The Pontifical Council for Unity must say something.

Brethren in One Risen Lord Jesus Christ, I traveled often to Rome in the last two years. A spirit of world reigns over Rome and Italy. Empty RC Churches. Not like here!

And I had an unpleasant surprise, in my last travel to Austria-Germany-Switzerland, 10 days ago, I visited an abbey (monastery). Heiligenkreuz, between Wien and Melk. Active monastery. Of Holy Cross. I entered the CHurch, so it is proper. 10 meters after entrance a high metallic fence, with a door of metal. Locked. But in the middle of the Church there were people. Well, in a final when they went out, the door was open. So that I wanted to enter and to pray. I was stopped by a man, who told me I must pay. So I gave up the idea and drove away. I could not pay to be in Church. This is not normal, although it was not a museum. Active monastery, with seminar et al.

I found that the RC Churches are too cold and very far from Orthodox Churches. I sincerely think that the Orthodox Church preserved very deeply the Christian faith and living.

Well, I end here now sharing this photograph [farm3.static.flickr.com], taken in the Orthodox Cathedral of Saint Nicholas from the city where I abide.

Lord Jesus Christ is the most important, all will pass, all, but Christ is with us now and ever and unto ages of ages.

God bless you all and may peace of Lord Jesus Christ reign in our souls. Amin.

m+