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Dec 29th, 2019
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And I had an unpleasant surprise, in my last travel to Austria-Germany-Switzerland, 10 days ago, I visited an abbey (monastery). Heiligenkreuz, between Wien and Melk. Active monastery. Of Holy Cross. I entered the CHurch, so it is proper. 10 meters after entrance a high metallic fence, with a door of metal. Locked. But in the middle of the Church there were people. Well, in a final when they went out, the door was open. So that I wanted to enter and to pray. I was stopped by a man, who told me I must pay. So I gave up the idea and drove away. I could not pay to be in Church. This is not normal, although it was not a museum. Active monastery, with seminar et al.
I found that the RC Churches are too cold and very far from Orthodox Churches. I sincerely think that the Orthodox Church preserved very deeply the Christian faith and living. Dear Marian, I think that this coldness and indifference is the spirit of the new Europe, not necessarily of the Roman Catholic Church...I agree that it is sad. The Orthodox Church has been preserved in a greater way due to the persecutions which it has endured in the native countries which it abides in, and the general lack of prosperity of its citizens...Truth be told, wealth is a great deterrent to the the spiritual life. In the United States, some of the most charitable organizations, and some of the most caring, welcoming, and helpful priests and religious, and churches, open to all, regardless of their creed, belong to the Roman Catholic Church. True, the Roman Catholic Church is in not only an identity crisis, but a moral and financial crisis over the past forty years, but I have seen too much good in the U.S. (paying for hospital bills of those who cannot within their hospitals, helping the poor, wonderful schools, etc.) to ever condemn. I also saw beautiful but empty churches that were more like museums overrun by tourists in Italy, and that made me sad and even a little angry, but in New York City, the RC Cathedral of St. Patrick is overflowing with persons in prayer every single hour of the day. Anytime that I have gone in to pray, my soul has rejoiced to see faithful from every walk of life in that great Metropolis humbly praying--rich, poor, Black, White, Hispanic, Blue collar workers in work clothes and White collar workers in suit and tie... So we cannot generalize...it is the lack of spirit of the new European which we should lament, not their church...The pious Polish and the Irish and the South American Catholics are inspiring proof that it is not the Catholic Church. I will never forget the concluding words of the author Victoria Clark of 'Why Angels Fall-a journey through Orthodox Europe' in her research trip through Orthodox Europe: "The West lost its soul and the East lost its mind". Hopefully, East and West can find a common ground where we in the East can give a little of our soul to the the West, and the West can give us a little of its mind! After all, a person or entity needs a little of both to be complete!   In Christ, Alice
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I've been in a few ice box cold Orthodox churches in this country....
One thing that is nice about a lot of Catholic Churches is they are open a fair amount of the time, and often have daily mass. The parish nearest me has a perpetual adoration chapel, though I've never stopped in.
Most Orthodox churches unfortunately are locked up tight during the week and have no daily services.
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My parish Church, for instance, is open 12 hours every day. Orthros, Vespers every day, 2 or 3 times Divine Liturgy during the week. So are the most Orthodox Churches in Romania.
I admit I was subjective, but I did not think of generalization.
In my travel I looked for monasteries. And I found one, although not active yet, but like a historical monument. The Benedictine monastery from Melk, Austria. Now...If I lived many years ago and I were Catholic, then surely I were monk in such a monastery. And I liked the Church, it is a beauty. It lacks the iconostasis, a loss for the RCC, well, this is not very important. Also the extraordinary library, where I were as a mouse inside. So great place! I loved so much that Benedectine place, then I visited again when I returned. I had to give up other places, only for Melk. And the gardens are so beautiful, very fine place to walk in the rhythm of the heart's prayer.
m+
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N.B. By RCC I understand any Catholic Church, either Romano-Catholic, Greek-Catholic, etc., because all obey Father Pope and Vatican.
Within the RCC the canons are not the same? No matter if at Rome, Seattle or Timisoara? It's a mistake to lump all Catholic Churches under the Roman Catholic Church. Each Church has its own Canons and most are run by their own Synods and Bishops. The Canons in Seattle are the same as those in Rome...for Roman Catholics. Melkite Catholics in Seattle and Rome have their own Canons to follow. We are one Communion, but we are far from monolithic. As for Confession, yes an Orthodox must go to Confession before receiving the Eucharist. They can either go to a Catholic priest (as allowed by the Catholic Church, not necessarily by the Orthodox Churches), or an Orthodox priest for Confession. It is on the individual to ensure that they are properly prepared; if the Catholic priest knows the person is living in sin, they can be denied the Eucharist. It's generally not required that people Confess to the priest they will receive the Eucharist from, so the priest won't know if the person Confessed recently or not. Also, in the Latin Catholic Church most Confession are done anonymously anyway. Peace and God bless!
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Well, I end here now sharing this photograph [ farm3.static.flickr.com], taken in the Orthodox Cathedral of Saint Nicholas from the city where I abide. Lord Jesus Christ is the most important, all will pass, all, but Christ is with us now and ever and unto ages of ages. God bless you all and may peace of Lord Jesus Christ reign in our souls. Amin. m+ That is a glorious photo, Marian. Thanks. Through the prayers of St. Nectarios and the Most Immaculate Theotokos, O Christ our God, may we be reunited in repentance, faith, and love.
Last edited by Elizabeth Maria; 06/11/08 08:46 PM.
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I've been in a few ice box cold Orthodox churches in this country....
One thing that is nice about a lot of Catholic Churches is they are open a fair amount of the time, and often have daily mass. The parish nearest me has a perpetual adoration chapel, though I've never stopped in.
Most Orthodox churches unfortunately are locked up tight during the week and have no daily services. The reason why many Churches -- both Catholic and Orthodox -- are locked up during the day and only open during the time when Holy Services are being conducted is due to vandalism especially by satanic groups. Are these sacrilegious vandalisms only occurring in California? We do need to be more bold and conduct more missions especially here in the USA.
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This shows us how far we have to go to achieve unity. A Romanian Orthodox Metropolitan faces possible excommunication for sharing communion with Eastern Catholics... http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=59019
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Anna,
By his actions, he has already excommunicated himself. What is to follow is merely the formalities.
Marian,
I can find no fault in the actions of the Catholic Church in what occurred here. They were within their scope of belief. The fault lies entirely with former Metropolitan. Of all people, he should have known better. What was he doing there in the first place??
Alexandr
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My parish Church, for instance, is open 12 hours every day. Orthros, Vespers every day, 2 or 3 times Divine Liturgy during the week. So are the most Orthodox Churches in Romania.
I admit I was subjective, but I did not think of generalization.
In my travel I looked for monasteries. And I found one, although not active yet, but like a historical monument. The Benedictine monastery from Melk, Austria. Now...If I lived many years ago and I were Catholic, then surely I were monk in such a monastery. And I liked the Church, it is a beauty. It lacks the iconostasis, a loss for the RCC, well, this is not very important. Also the extraordinary library, where I were as a mouse inside. So great place! I loved so much that Benedectine place, then I visited again when I returned. I had to give up other places, only for Melk. And the gardens are so beautiful, very fine place to walk in the rhythm of the heart's prayer.
m+ Speaking of being subjective or generalizing: When I visit US and Canadian Orthodox parish and cathedral websites and see that they normally have services only on Sundays and major feasts, I have to remind myself that these do not represent the situation in the Orthodox Church as a whole. Rather -- as Marian has said -- it is the situation in the "old countries", Romania, Russia, Serbia and to a certain extent, Greece -- which truly represent the state of parish liturgical life in the Orthodox Church. In these countries, daily Matins and Vespers and more-than-Sunday Divine Liturgies are still the rule in most urban parishes and cathedrals. The Cathedral in Bucharest even has daily Divine Liturgy and Vespers broadcast on radio.
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The Church of Piraeus (port city next to Athens) in Greece broadcasts daily liturgies, vespers, paraklisis, and other services live, and during the rest of the day it broadcasts readings from inspiring books like the one about St. John Krondstadt, Father Arseny, etc., etc.--which is very nice if one is on a long drive, or cannot read comfortably due to age, inability to purchase the books, or any other reasons.
The Divine Liturgy starts early and Athens is seven hours ahead of the East Coast of the U.S. in time, so figure, if you would like to hear the DL, it starts around 7-7:30 AM Greece, which would be midnight (US) East Coast time.
Enjoy--it is very Byzantine...
http://www.pe912fm.com/DocLib/%ce%96%cf%89%ce%bd%cf%84%ce%b1%ce%bd%ce%ae%20%ce%b1%ce%ba%cf%81%cf%8c%ce%b1%cf%83%ce%b7.aspx
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Anna,
By his actions, he has already excommunicated himself. What is to follow is merely the formalities.
Marian,
I can find no fault in the actions of the Catholic Church in what occurred here. They were within their scope of belief. The fault lies entirely with former Metropolitan. Of all people, he should have known better. What was he doing there in the first place??
Alexandr Alexandr, I agree with you. Joe
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This thread leads me to ask this question, "how much unity in matters of doctrine and discipline is necessary to commune in the Catholic Church?" For example, if Orthodox Christians who deny papal authority, who (possibly) practice contraception, and who deny other Catholic dogmas such as purgatory and the immaculate conception, are permitted (perhaps even encouraged) to receive communion in a Roman Catholic Church, then why should Roman Catholic laity feel obliged to believe anything different from what the Orthodox believe? Why can't Catholic laity deny papal authority and practice contraception and still receive communion when their Orthodox brothers and sisters can do so?
The problem I have with the Catholic practice of admitting Orthodox to communion is that it muddies the waters and actually does a disservice to true ecumenism. The Catholic Church, by doing this, is implicitly stating that Orthodox share the same faith. And when Orthodox deny this, then the response seems to be that we really do share the same faith as the Catholics, we just don't know our faith the way the Catholic Church knows our faith. Folks, no one should be surprised if some of us Orthodox find this stance of Rome to be condescending.
Joe Yes, reception of Holy Communion should be a sign of unity and a witness that our beliefs are in accord with the teachings of the Church. Not only that, and here is the rub, we should have forgiven all who have offended us, and have asked for forgiveness. What is really sad, is that it is so easy for Orthodox who want to leave Orthodoxy for whatever reason to simply go Catholic. They are not questioned or held accountable as there is no guarding of the chalice; they just simply stand in line and receive along with other Catholics. I know several Orthodox Christians who did this, and they feel no reason to stop visiting Catholic Churches whenever they sleep in and cannot make the Orthodox Divine Liturgy. Furthermore, they feel that it is no sin, even though they might give scandal to their fellow Orthodox parishioners, and they see no reason to confess this to the Orthodox Priest especially since they might receive a canonical two-year penance if they admit what they have done. I cannot mention names, but there are some sweet ladies at my parish who do this all the time, especially when they are mistreated by other parishioners. Lord have mercy. At the Roman Catholic Church, due to the multiple Masses with thousands of parishioners, they can become lost in the crowd, and so they do not fear bumping into someone who will mistreat them. They enjoy their anonymity. I wonder if the Metropolitan in question might petition Rome to cross the Tiber.
Last edited by Elizabeth Maria; 06/12/08 05:08 PM.
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It is most unlikely that Pope Benedict would actually refuse Metropolitan Nicholas if he were to request to enter into full Communion with the Catholic Church - but it may not necessarily be that he would be entrusted with a diocese.
The more serious issue, I suggest, is the abuse of the Eucharist by denying it to people, not for genuine theological or moral reasons, but as a "means of disunity", a means of maintaining schisms and replacing ordinary disciplinary measures with excommunication.
By the way, the Catholic Church requires that three separate warnings be given before someone is actually excommunicated - which is a rare event.
Fr. Serge
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It is most unlikely that Pope Benedict would actually refuse Metropolitan Nicholas if he were to request to enter into full Communion with the Catholic Church - but it may not necessarily be that he would be entrusted with a diocese.
The more serious issue, I suggest, is the abuse of the Eucharist by denying it to people, not for genuine theological or moral reasons, but as a "means of disunity", a means of maintaining schisms and replacing ordinary disciplinary measures with excommunication.
By the way, the Catholic Church requires that three separate warnings be given before someone is actually excommunicated - which is a rare event.
Fr. Serge Dear Father Serge: Father Bless! I agree with you. On the one hand, I feel so uneasy when there are Catholics present who do not understand why they cannot partake of the Eucharist in Orthodox Churches. The mandated declaration required to be read just prior to distributing the Holy Eucharist does upset them. Yes, it does seem cult-like -- this declaration of non-unity at a point in the Divine Liturgy when we become the Body of Christ through receiving the Holy Eucharist. On the other hand, I can understand the Orthodox concern for guarding the Chalice. Otherwise, people might approach who may take communion for granted and forget that they are receiving the Precious Body and Blood of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ. This why Confession is now mandated at least every 30 days or more often depending on one's spiritual disposition. Maybe this is why the Orthodox Metropolitan partook of the Chalice from Eastern Catholics. I wonder what he will say about this or if he will reply publicly at all.
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