www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Vatican definitively approves Neo-Catechumenal Way

Tone down the rhetoric my friends, on all sides of the issue.

I humbly ask forgiveness, brother Neil. It is just that I have experienced prejudice most of my life growing up in the States as an Arab. I recall seeing a clip of some American Indian Catholics dancing for HH JP2 of thrice-blessed memory during a Liturgy and I thought it was simply beautiful. I was not used to it, but I understood that it is part of their Indian heritage to worship God through dance. But there are many who would tell American Indians that there is no room in the Catholic Church for their culture or spirituality.

That's what I see reflected here. The acceptance of the NCW by the appropriate Congregation was conditioned on the inclusion of basic rubrics which would make their Liturgy valid. If it is a valid Liturgy, that is all I need to know. I don't have to like the Liturgy, but if I don't like it, I have a choice and a right not to attend it. But by no means do people have a right to claim that just because some of its Liturgical practices are uncommon, then that makes it wrong and to be rejected.

I recall when I was a Coptic Orthodox not in communion with Rome, I had to deal with Latins who did not view standing during the Liturgy as reverential towards God. I explained to them that to Copts, standing is regarded as the proper form for reverence. Thus, when they understood that the condition of reverence was being satisfied, they were satisfied as well. The same thing applies here. Some - perhaps many - do not believe that dancing during the Liturgy is reverential towards God. But that is not what those who do Liturgical dancing believe. They indeed believe that dancing is a form of reverence towards God. Some or many may not be used to it, but that gives them no right to claim that reverence has been rejected.

Is there a valid Eucharist - are they using wheat and the prescribed prayers? Is Scripture being presented? Is there proper praise for God and veneration of the Saints during the Liturgy? Etc. These are what should concern critics of Liturgy. Not whether guitars or tamborines or dancing are present. Does anyone here really think that God will reject them for that? The only ones doing the rejecting are mere men/women.

Once again, forgive me for my anger. I ask forgiveness not only from brother Neil, but also from any who may have read my post.

Humbly,
Marduk

Marduk is absolutely correct. Read 2Samuel 6, 2 - 16. If that isn't enough, Luke mirrors this in Luke 1, 41 - 44. The womb hid the baby's dance, but Elizabeth felt the movement. Leave the Way alone. Through it the faith of many has been deepened and the Vatican acknowledges this.

Perhaps, but if anything goes, then nothing matters.

Perhaps not everything that one thinks matters also matters to Him who matters above all things.

Exactly.

May Christ who taught the Apostles the one holy Catholic and Apostolic faith help us to preserve that faith undefiled and unchanged.

Through the intercessions of Saints Peter and Paul, O Christ our God, have mercy on us and save us.

Let us continue to read 2 Samuel 6.

20 And David returned to bless his own house: and Michol the daughter of Saul coming out to meet David, said: How glorious was the king of Israel today, uncovering himself before the handmaids of his servants, and was naked, as if one of the buffoons should be naked.

21 And David said to Michol: Before the Lord, who chose me rather than thy father, and than all his house, and commanded me to be ruler over the people of the Lord in Israel, 22 I will both play and make myself meaner than I have done: and I will be little in my own eyes: and with the handmaid of whom thou speakest, I shall appear more glorious.

Seems to me, David's dance was an act of humility.

King David's dance has absolutely nothing to do with the Lord's Supper.

None of the Byzantine Divine Liturgies have liturgical dancing -- that is not in our holy tradition.

I cannot agree with your statement above. But, I can say I do NOT believe 2 Samuel 6 supports Liturgical dancing.

The Evangelist Luke felt David's dance had something to do with the presence of the LORD as embodied in the Ark. The parallels to 2 Samuel 6 are too striking. Mary, the Ark of the Lord, elicits the response from Elizabeth: "How should the Mother of my Lord come to me". Much the same response as David's. The babe in her womb leapt (danced, if you will). You can snear at other peoples liturgical expressions if you want, but as long as they stand in the good stead with the orthodox, catholic and apostolic faith, they are blameless as far as I'm concerned. David 2 vs Michol 5. Ouch!

Hello Elizabeth:




I haven't seen anything that would suggest the above. I have seen a few things on the web that at best might be considered to be speculation but nothing definitive. If you could point me to the articles you are speaking of in the " Church news" I would be much obliged.

In Christ:
Converted Viking

The Dance of Isaiah during the marriage service. Although not a dance in the contemporary American sense, a dance nonetheless.

Interesting about David's dance, but it took place before the Holy Place, not in it. There is no precedent for liturgical dancing in Christianity. In paganism, sure, but not in Christianity.

I don't think we're talking about precedent though.

I think the real question is "Does the Church have the authority to insert liturgical dancing into Divine worship."

I also think the Orthodox answer is 'no,' but I could be wrong.

Regarding what has been referred to as the "dance of Isaiah," is not a dance, it is a triple procession symbolizing ascent.

Fr. John Meyendorff in his book, Marriage: An Orthodox Perspective, writes �The hymn begins in fact by a call to execute a ritual khorodia, well known both to the Jews of the Old Testament (David danced before the Ark of the Covenant, II Samuel 6:14) and to the ancient Greeks; and the triple circular procession of the bridal pair led by the priest around the sacramental table can be seen as a proper and respectful form of �liturgical dancing.� �

http://www.antiochian.org/1284