www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Bush Becoming a Catholic?

even just wars must be avoided.

My father is a United Methodist minister. In my youth (the late 1960's or early 1970's) I witnessed him 'baptise' two baby girls with earth, wind, fire, and water. For the last couple decades my father would never baptise anyone in the name of "the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit," but instead 'baptises' in the name of "the Creator, the Redeemer, and the Sustainer." By the way, the Baptismal Certificates he fills out and gives to the parents (which are printed by a Methodist publishing house) still say "This child, N., was Baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

I don't trust Protestant 'baptisms' for this reason. Check, double check, and baptise at least conditionally.

I think that we Americans as a nation were to eager to go to war at the time; that our politicians were too cowardly in an election year to vote against the war, and that we were too much influenced by fear, after the awful events of 911, rather than by our faith in our God.

Dear Alice,

I do not judge President Bush, or the state of his soul. I thought I was saying something gracious about the president, by expressing solidarity with him as a fellow sinner, in need of Christ.

But you ask, "did he really do anything that bad?"

An unjust, unecessary, pre-emptive war is a bad thing in my mind. Iraq had nothing to do with 911.

The pope and most of the Orthodox bishops in the world condemned the Iraq war. I think I am in good company in being against the war. The war was not just mistaken, it was wrong morally.



Blessings,

Lance

Dear Lance,

One of the problems of this forum program is that when someone posts after another, it looks as if they are somehow responding to that person's post even if they are not-- because the top of the posting box will say 'RE:xxx' (the person's name of the last post you read before posting).

When I am responding to someone in particular, I will generally 'reply with quote' as I have done here.

Actually, if you read page 1, I was responding to a general attitude that had been building up by the time you posted and not you specifically.

Take care....

In Christ,
Alice

Dear Lance,

I don't want to "escalate" this business, but in defense of what Alice said, Pres. Bush, with the approval of the Senate, declared war on the regime of Hussein. Whether or not it was "unjust" or "unnecessary" remains a matter of opinion, now pretty much opinions benefitting from hindsight. Yes, the Pope and others were against it, but at the time I tried to find out if the Pope had truly "condemned" going to war against Hussein, because my brother told me he had. We looked and couldn't actually find anything specific. So I think Alice's contextualization is rather accurate.

In Christ,
Michael

Theologos,

Regardless of what we think of President Bush personally, shouldn't we celebrate when a person, no matter who he is, abandons heresy and adopts the True Faith?

We are ALL unworthy to call ourselves Catholics, and he would be no different. That doesn't mean he shouldn't convert.

Alexis

First, let us pray that the Lord is leading President Bush towards full membership in the Catholic Church.

Second, a discussion about the justness or unjustness of the effort to liberate the Iraqi people is more appropriate to another thread. If one reads closely what the Holy Father, Pope John Paul the Great, stated (and not the biased account reported in most of the media) it amounts to an agreement that the conditions for the war were just but that even just wars must be avoided. One can support the effort in Iraq and remain in good standing with the Catholic Church just as one can oppose the effort in Iraq and be in good standing with the Catholic Church.

Thirdly, I highly recommend to all not to consider entertainment websites as legitimate sources of news. It is usually best to obtain information from all sources, both liberal and conservative, both domestic and international before forming conclusions (avoiding the sheer entertainment stuff). [Overall, Alice's summary above is quite accurate.]

Interesting, President Bush is hated viscerally by many on the political left. And so was President Reagan at the same point in his term. If the Iraqis do succeed in establishing a constitutional democracy (I give them a 50/50 chance at this point) then it is possible that history will judge President Bush as fondly as it now judges President Reagan.

The Catholic Church believes in only ONE baptism. Any trinitarian baptism outside of the Catholic Church is accepted as valid.

Fr. Straut,

While your fathers actions are deplorable (no offense), I would imagine that is a very, very rare occurence in the United Methodist Church.

Anyway, I am from a small, Southern town in west Georgia. I was certainly baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, with water from the River Jordan, actually, and have been to dozens upon dozens of baptisms at my old church performed by various ministers and it has always been the exact same way.

Any other "baptism" of the sort you speak of would NEVER, ever fly in these parts, I can assure you of that. People would absolutely lose it. I highly doubt President Bush was baptized in the name of anything other than the Trinity, and since he is about 60 years old and was surely baptized as an infant, long before this fad, rare as it is, reared its ugly head, makes it even more doubtful that something went awry.

In my humble opinion.

Alexis

Fr. David,

Interesting personal experience. And we have "Catholics" doing similar things unfortunately.

Re Pres. Bush, though, I think he was probably originally baptized by the Episcopal Church, since the Bushes are originally Episcopalians, I think, and I would guess that they probably used the traditional formula when he was young.

The point is the same, however, as you make clear: only certainty where the sacraments are concerned.

Michael