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Dec 29th, 2019
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Amadeus - In case you missed it, President Victor (The Great) Yuschenko is calling for church unity and has even used the expression 'Orthodox-Catholic Faith. If Rome, Kyiv, and Constantinople find a 'workable solution' then I'm confident other nations will follow. The Romanians can't be far behind.
The Russian Federation's Patriarch will have a much more difficult time accepting a United Orthodox Church in Ukraine (in communion with both Rome and Constantinople) with it's own leader. President Putin of the Russian Federation recently told a 'closed door' meeting of NATO leaders in Bucharest "that Ukraine is not a country - it's simply a territory of Russia". Birds of a feather .....
I.F. I think nobody but a few have missed the various manifestations of the desire of every Ukrainian to have the Church of Ukraine restored to full unity: fully Orthodox or fully Catholic, or both. Because Ukraine remains as the only nation with so many competing Orthodox jurisdictions! Pres. Yuschenko will not be the last. Amado
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Moses walked his people through the desert for 40 years before they found the promised land. This August will be the 17th year that the Ukrainian people have been walking through the proverbial desert. I strongly believe church unity will be achieved within the next 23 years.
I.F.
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I wonder what Rome will make of all of this? Given that Rome has already nixed the Zoghby initiative, it seems that they would not accept this proposal for double communion. Also, I don't think that individual Orthodox Churches can independently restablish communion with non-Orthodox Churches. It must be a move to establish communion by the whole of Orthodoxy, meaning some kind of universal synod or council would be necessary.
Joe
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I don't see how the Ukranian Catholic Church can come into communion with the Orthodox Church without rejecting the teachings concerning papal primacy that are held by Rome. I do not see how they can stay in communion with Rome if they do reject those teachings. There must be unity of faith in order for their to be communion and so this "double communion" notion, while interesting, will not go anywhere.
Joe
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Double communion is already happening in certain areas where there are not enough churches in the Middle East, in Greece, and in the USA. This was confirmed to me by an Antiochian Orthodox Priest and a Greek Orthodox Priest who told me that in a few areas here in the USA where there is no Byzantine/Melkite Church, as long as the Byzantine/Melkite Catholics go to confession to an Orthodox Priest, then they are allowed to receive Holy Communion. In addition, a Melkite Catholic Deacon also confirmed that when he traveled abroad, that most Orthodox Churches allowed him to receive Communion if he went to Confession beforehand. However, this does not seem to apply to Roman Catholics.
Roman Catholic churches allow Orthodox Christians to receive communion in their churches already. However, Orthodox who do so may be penanced for up to two to three years as I have known some women who were.
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This "double communion" (thankfully for Joe a concept more digestible than "double unity" [?]) might be feasible, and workable I think, if it is a clear prelude to Constantinople elevating her own actions to full or near communion with Rome.
That event would be the missing side of the triangle that was heretofore imperfect.
With or without the agreement of Moscow, I hasten to add!
Amado
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Double communion is already happening in certain areas where there are not enough churches in the Middle East, in Greece, and in the USA. This was confirmed to me by an Antiochian Orthodox Priest and a Greek Orthodox Priest who told me that in a few areas here in the USA where there is no Byzantine/Melkite Church, as long as the Byzantine/Melkite Catholics go to confession to an Orthodox Priest, then they are allowed to receive Holy Communion. In addition, a Melkite Catholic Deacon also confirmed that when he traveled abroad, that most Orthodox Churches allowed him to receive Communion if he went to Confession beforehand. However, this does not seem to apply to Roman Catholics.
Roman Catholic churches allow Orthodox Christians to receive communion in their churches already. However, Orthodox who do so may be penanced for up to two to three years as I have known some women who were. If this is happening in the U.S., then it is happening against Antiochian Orthodox policy as articulated by Metropolitan Philip (at least this is my understanding). When I was Melkite, I lived for about a year in an area where there was an Antiochian Orthodox Church and no Melkite Church. I was told in no uncertain terms that I could not receive communion in the Orthodox Church. Joe
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This "double communion" (thankfully for Joe a concept more digestible than "double unity" [?]) might be feasible, and workable I think, if it is a clear prelude to Constantinople elevating her own actions to full or near communion with Rome.
That event would be the missing side of the triangle that was heretofore imperfect.
With or without the agreement of Moscow, I hasten to add!
Amado I can't see any Patriarch acting without the support of all of the others. It would potentially tear Orthodoxy apart. Joe
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before everyone gets too excite about it, please remember this is attirubted to the Ecumenical Patriarchate by a catholic press release.
There is no proof whatsoever that the Ecumenical Patriarch actually believes or supports "double unity".
I have no doubt that in a few days there will be an appropriate press release from Constninople or when they become aware of the Catholic press article.
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Up to now I think the actions of the MP seem to be tearing apart Orthodoxy.
If the past two years could be used as a gauge, most, if not all, of the other 13 autocephalous Orthodox Churches have sided with the EP at the International Commission (for theological dialogue between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches).
Recent actions of the MP in opposition to the EP include (1)their avowed policy not to participate in joint prayer with non-Orthodox Christians; (2) their rejection of the "Ravenna Document" after also walking out of the 2008 meeting of the International Commission in Ravenna; and (3) their very vocal protest against the recognition of the Estonian Orthodox Church.
Don't these portend of things to come?
Amado
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I believe someone asked for the original German version. Here it is: 16. Juni 2008, 12:30 Patriarch Bartholomaios I. akzeptiert 'doppelte Einheit' Eine L�sung zur Einheit mit der Orthodoxie? - Patriarch Bartholomaios I. hat die griechisch-katholischen Kirchen eingeladen, bei voller Gemeinschaft mit dem Papst wieder orthodox zu werden M�nchen ( www.kath.net [ kath.net]) Das Oberhaupt der Orthodoxie, Patriarch Bartholomaios I. hat die griechisch-katholischen Kirchen eingeladen, bei voller Gemeinschaft mit dem Papst wieder orthodox zu werden wie die �kumenischen Zeitschrift Kyrillos+Methodios berichtet. �Die Mutterkirche von Konstantinopel h�lt allen ihren einstigen S�hnen und T�chtern die T�r zur R�ckkehr offen�, sagte der Patriarch. Grundlage k�nne das Verst�ndnis von Kirchengemeinschaft sein, wie es f�r die Einheit der byzantinischen und r�mischen Kirche im ersten Jahrtausend pr�gend war. Damit bef�rwortet Patriarch Bartholomaios I. das Modell der �doppelten Einheit�, das Kardinal Lubomyr Husar, Oberhaupt der Griechisch-Katholischen Kirche der Ukraine, vorgeschlagen hat, um die Kirchenspaltung zu �berwinden. Gespr�chsbedarf sieht Patriarch Bartholomaios I. bei der �neueren katholischen Dogmenentwicklung�. Auch m�sse man �ber die globalen vatikanischen Verwaltungsstrukturen reden. Volle kirchliche Gemeinschaft lie�e sich nicht �von den Kirchenf�hrern verk�nden und von den Theologen erkl�geln�, sagte Patriarch Bartholomaios weiters. �Unser Leben und Glauben, die Menschen an der Basis, m�ssen wieder zusammenwachsen. Da bleibt noch viel zu tun: Partnerschaften zwischen orthodoxen, katholischen und reformatorischen Gemeinden, gemeinsame Projekte, besseres Kennenlernen und Verstehen, und viel, viel Gebet.� Die Kirchen d�rften �sich nicht einfach damit zufrieden geben, in ethisch-moralischen Lehraussagen �Einigkeit �ber ihre Uneinigkeit� erzielt zu haben, sondern m�ssen bereit sind, sich ernsthaft mit ihren Meinungsverschiedenheiten auseinanderzusetzen und sie im Lichte der Lehre, des liturgischen Lebens und der Heiligen Schrift gr�ndlich zu analysieren�. Wichtige Schritte auf dem Weg zur Einheit habe man bereits getan, sagte Patriarch Bartholomaios. �Der gegenseitige Kirchenbann von 1054 ist aufgehoben, der theologische Dialog der Orthodoxie mit Anglikanern, Lutheranern und Reformierten kommt kontinuierlich voran. Mit der r�misch-katholischen Kirche wurde dieses Glaubensgespr�ch nach mehrj�hriger Pause wieder aufgenommen.� http://www.kath.net/detail.php?id=20113Notice there are few actual quotes of words by the Patriarch of Constaninople and a lot of editorializing from the writer. Orest
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Double communion is already happening in certain areas where there are not enough churches in the Middle East, in Greece, and in the USA. This was confirmed to me by an Antiochian Orthodox Priest and a Greek Orthodox Priest who told me that in a few areas here in the USA where there is no Byzantine/Melkite Church, as long as the Byzantine/Melkite Catholics go to confession to an Orthodox Priest, then they are allowed to receive Holy Communion. In addition, a Melkite Catholic Deacon also confirmed that when he traveled abroad, that most Orthodox Churches allowed him to receive Communion if he went to Confession beforehand. However, this does not seem to apply to Roman Catholics.
Roman Catholic churches allow Orthodox Christians to receive communion in their churches already. However, Orthodox who do so may be penanced for up to two to three years as I have known some women who were. If this is happening in the U.S., then it is happening against Antiochian Orthodox policy as articulated by Metropolitan Philip (at least this is my understanding). When I was Melkite, I lived for about a year in an area where there was an Antiochian Orthodox Church and no Melkite Church. I was told in no uncertain terms that I could not receive communion in the Orthodox Church. Joe I was told that in order for a Eastern Catholic to receive Holy Communion in the Orthodox Church, an economia would have to be specifically given to that parish by the Bishop. Permission is rarely given to an individual to do so, and the person is told not to talk about it. In one case where a Melkite was allowed to do this for about six months, he was told that he would have to be chrismated in order to continue receiving Holy Communion, which was done. Word had leaked out in that case, and another Eastern Catholic woman who had been granted that same privilege had just separated from the Eastern Church and had gone into a schismatic sedevacantist church headed by Bishop Sebastian in North Hollywood. The Orthodox Priest in cooperation with his Bishop felt that the graces received in Holy Chrismation are essential and should not be denied.
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The Holy Orthodoxy is much more than Constantinople. An important decision, which becomes a canon, must be taken only and only by a Pan-Orthodox Synod, all the Orthodox Churches. Be aware that here, for example, the ecumenism is not anymore too agreed. The Orthodox has the fullness of truth and preserved intact all the holy teachings and the Holy Tradition.
Prayer is needed. As I see, the world suffers much and dark voices bark against our Most Sweet Lord Jesus Christ. The two Churches must fight against many bad things. In time, with peaceful brotherhood, much prayer, may God have mercy and bless us with a common Holy Eucharist. But the Vatican must refine some matters.
In Christ, Marian+
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Up to now I think the actions of the MP seem to be tearing apart Orthodoxy.
If the past two years could be used as a gauge, most, if not all, of the other 13 autocephalous Orthodox Churches have sided with the EP at the International Commission (for theological dialogue between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches).
Recent actions of the MP in opposition to the EP include (1)their avowed policy not to participate in joint prayer with non-Orthodox Christians; (2) their rejection of the "Ravenna Document" after also walking out of the 2008 meeting of the International Commission in Ravenna; and (3) their very vocal protest against the recognition of the Estonian Orthodox Church.
Don't these portend of things to come?
Amado I have Orthodox friends who have made the same kind of statements, only in reverse.
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I have Orthodox friends who have made the same kind of statements, only in reverse. [ byztex.blogspot.com]
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