www.byzcath.org

Joe, this is just political nonsense, masquerading as something affiliated with God. This is just so opposed to all canons, as to not even be funny.

Alexandr

Amado, if that was the case, it would just mean that Patriarch Bartholomew apostatized, and a new Patriarch to the Phanar would be appointed by the Church.

Alexandr

Implying that St Peter is not present in the Orthodox Church? Careful how you answer that Dan.

Alexandr

You folks have taken my comment too literally. When i said that the EOC lived without St. Peter for a 1000 years, I meant that Rome and her bishop (=St. Peter or Vatican and the seat or see of Peter), went their own way and that the EOC survived without the Church of Rome.

St. Cyprian, in the quotation supplied earlier in this thread, does not restrict the "Cathedram Petri" to the see of Rome, as Fr. Maurice Bevenot (S.J.) explained in the notes to his translation of St. Cyprian's treatise on the unity of the Churrch, and here is what Fr. Bevenot said about St. Cyprian's use of the phrase chair of Peter:

Now, as St. Cyprian himself pointed out a bit later in the same treatise, "The authority of the bishops forms a unity, of which each holds his part in its totality. And the Church forms a unity, however far she spreads and multiplies by the progeny of her fecundity; just as the sun's rays are many, yet the light is one, and a tree's branches are many, yet the strength deriving from its sturdy root is one. So too, though many streams flow from a single spring, though its multiplicity seems scattered abroad by the copiousness of its welling waters, yet their oneness abides by reason of their starting point." [Ancient Christian Writers, volume 25, pages 47-48]

Thus, each bishop possesses the fullness of Episcopal orders, just as the persons of the Trinity possess simultaneously the whole Godhead; and in this multiplicity in unity, and unity in multiplicity, no bishop is over any other bishop, but all are sacramentally equal, and all are successors of St. Peter through episcopal consecration.

I asked my friends in Ukraine to send me a picture of the Patriarchal Sobor currently under construction on the Left Bank of the Dnipro river in the city of Kyiv. They told me that there would be room for the Holy Father, Ecumenical Patriarch, and the Ukrainian Patriarch. The seating arrangement is 'top secret' for the moment.

http://sobor.ugcc.org.ua/main.php?cmd=imageview&var1=0806220700.jpeg&var2=1

I.F.

Слава Ісусу Христу!

Seating? In the Kyivan Patriarchitical Cathedral of the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church of the Orthodox Faith! What can be more shocking?

Not at all. One would surely expect to find a permanent apsidal throne at the High Place for the Patriarch, or another hierarch whom the Patriarch might delegate to serve, and one would also expect to find benches for the presbyters (for use during the Epistle of the Divine Liturgy, the Kathisma at Vespers and Orthros, and so forth).

Fr. Serge

I have received a number of complaints the past few days about this thread, complaining almost equally about both Catholic and Orthodox posters. In reviewing the thread I most certainly see more polemic then charity in a number of posts.

I remind posters that this and all topics must be discussed with Christian charity. Treating one another with brotherly love does not mean that one need agree falsely, or appear to. It does mean that one should show honor to one another, and treat one another as Christ even when one disagrees.

I will not close the thread at this point, but might do so later today after more consultation with another administrator. If the thread is closed, please see it as an opportunity to start a fresh discussion, free from the tensions in this discussion.

Forgive me for not being the sharpest tool in the shed.

What did His All-Holiness actually say in this interview?

I'd really like to see the questions posed and his answers in full. I have little time for media types that slant the news to fit their own agendas. Therefore, I have to wonder if this is something His All-Holiness actually said or is something that the interviewer read into his remarks.

I've noticed in my life that bishops are usually not given to rash statements. Usually remarks are nuanced and it is the nuances that the media usually don't "get." People used to making mountains out of therty-second soundbites to see air time, radio time, magazines, and newspapers usually have the skill just to take things at face value--or so they think--and rush to publish because they've got deadlines. 1000 years of living apart and 1000 years of development apart and 1000 years of moving from a usual human relationship to hardened positions cannot be compressed into a simple interview or the report of that interview.

In Christ,

BOB

I, too, would very much like to see the actual text of the interview that "Cyril und Methodios" had with the EP.

However, after some searching, I've had to conclude that it simply isn't online at this point -- or at least it can't be found be doing a google search.

Here's my reasoning: kath.net reported (June 16th, i.e. before the RISU or CWNews articles) him to have said �Die Mutterkirche von Konstantinopel h�lt allen ihren einstigen S�hnen und T�chtern die T�r zur R�ckkehr offen�. That should be an exact quote, directly out of the "Cyril und Methodios" journal; but if you google that sentence [google.com], the text of the interview does not come up.

Thanks Peter. I have been following this discussion on Orthodox forums and no one else has come up with direct quotes from the EP affirming "double unity". The general concensus from the Orthodox side seems to be that the staments are either untrue or a misinterpretation of some general comments by the EP favoring ecumenical talks in general or in spirit.

Whether the Ecumenical Patriarch's comments are accurate or not - I'm not sure, and only time will tell. IMHO, they are probably right on target.

There are a few points which all Christians should take into account before negating the core message of the news article.

First, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church KP - in terms of active members is numerically largest church in Ukraine - and possibly the world. It is 'sitting out there on a limb' not alligned with any other recognized centers of Christianity. Further, it is very naive to think that this church will re-allign itself with the Moscow Patriarchy - it will not happen - ever. Calling the UOC-KP "Scismatics" or other uncharitable names will only fuel their 'resolve' to find a way to unite with other churches. In fact, it's probably why they are in discussions with the UGCC on some type of joint patriarchate.

Second, it would be very naive to believe that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church KP will continue to wait for some form of recognition from other Orthodox Churches. In fact, the UOC-KP Church has met with Georgian, Armenian, Romanian, and Bulgarian Orthodox Church leaders and emissaries in recent months. They have been far less hostile than the Russian Orthodox Church. In fact, some have been openly suportive.

Third, there is a strong will on the part of the Ukrainian people to unite their branches of Christian Orthodoxy (including Greek Catholics) under a single Patriarchate in Kyiv. Simply recognizing one branch of Orthodoxy is not their goal. Uniting Ukrainian Orthodoxy into one church is more important to the Ukrainians than recognition by other Orthodox churches.

Fourth, Ukrainians feel it is their duty to unite the Patriarchates Kyiv with Rome and Constantinople as was the church in the times of St Volodymyr the Great. The UGCC and UOC-KP churches want to restore the 'wholeness' of their church - both in Ukraine and in the diaspora.

Church unity in our lifetimes - Yes we can !

I.F.

I.F.,

Oh, how I pray you are correct!! Glory to Jesus Christ!

CDL

Alexandr,

I agree with you. And I also suspect that Rome does as well, based on the then Cardinal Ratzinger's CDF commentary on the Zoghby initiative.

Joe