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Had he lived in the early centuries of Christianity, he would have been instantly canonized for his defense of Christian orthodoxy.

I suspect that this is true about Cardinal Trujillo, as I know little about him I can not say more. His statements against Homosexual sodomy "marriage" were the most forceful I have ever heard by any bishop. In this statement he inspires me profoundly to continue to educate people that homosexuality is curable psychological illness which leads many to great sin, suffering and death.

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Originally Posted by Elizabeth Maria
Originally Posted by carson daniel lauffer
Marian,

You did not address the question. How can there be a Church without St. Peter?

CDL


hum....

There is the Antiochian Church which was jointly founded by Saints Peter and Paul. And this church is where the disciples were first called Christians.

Then there is the Alexandrian Church which was founded by St. Peter and St. Mark, correct.

So Rome is not the only church that was founded by the Apostle Peter who served as a missionary bishop and founded not one church but at least three churches. In fact, Rome was founded by Saints Peter and Paul also, because both did missionary work and shed their blood there.

Well, alrighty then. This is thrown up regularly. I wonder why Christendom doesn't then follow the successor of St. Peter from either Alexandria or Antioch. Did God make a mistake and really intend for one or both of those cities to be major centers of Christianity? If so, what happened?

For that matter, all of the Church gave special respect to Rome as the see of St. Peter for the most part before 1054.

What you put forth is rather an ineffective case, I should think.

CDL

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Yawn, the EOC has survived over a 1000 years without Rome. The Pope can return any time he wants after all the Ecumenical Patriarch is keeping his seat warm. The two churches are so different. How can a united Ukrainian Church serve two masters? The template of the Byzantine rite being a bridge between Rome and Constantinople is a pipe dream in my judgment in light of the history of current events.

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John,

What you mean is "EOC has survived over a 1000 years without St. Peter." So have alot of organizations.

CDL

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This thread has now drawn close to the uncharitable polemics that have divided us for that same last 1000 years. I, for one, would like to see this discussion either return to a more civil tone or be closed.

Just because His All-Holiness has made a statement that is controversial does not mean we need to sharpen the knives and go at each other.

I still don't know if this is an official statement or an editorial reading into something he said by an interviewer.

BOB

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Bob,

We were discussing on the basis of taking the news reports at face value. It doesn't surprise me that either the Patriarch or the bishop would take such stands. I applaud them for this stand. Yet, you may be right. The report may contain enough editorial misrepresentation as to make the whole point moot. If the moderators believe that the article is misleading then this entire thread means nothing and might as well be closed. Does anyone have any reason to believe that this article misrepresents the positions taken by these holy men?

That would be a shame.

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Dan,

I am not in the mood for these games because I have a lot to be working on, and I am also getting tired of the complaints that have been coming in this afternoon from posters from all sides of the divide regarding your posts, stating that you seemed to be trying to pick a fight. It does not appear that you posted in order to discuss the topic of this thread, but rather to introduce a polemic. If this is your reason to post here, then I would suggest you take your own advice. If you are here to discuss the content of the original topic material then welcome back. You might want to read up a number of posts, I had already cautioned all posters to keep the discussion reasonable due to the sensitivity of the subject.

Consider this a warning.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
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Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
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Originally Posted by theophan
I still don't know if this is an official statement or an editorial reading into something he said by an interviewer.

BOB

Something I was just thinking: RISU and CWNews are well-known, reputable news sources. But I've never heard of this German ecumenical journal called "Cyril and Methodius".

I don't doubt that it exists, but is it a reputable journal? Is it possible that "Cyril and Methodius" printed a fictional interview? Seems unlikely, but I can't rule it out.

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To be fair: in Orthodox ecclesiology all bishops are successors of St. Peter (cf. Bishop Hilarion's talk at the site below), so Orthodoxy has never been without St. Peter.

http://audio.ancientfaith.com/specials/svs/bphilarion.mp3


See also the post by Michael Thoma: https://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=292001#Post292001

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The Orthodox Understanding of Primacy and Catholicity
by Bishop Hilarion of Vienna and Austria

Paper read at the meeting of the theological commission of the Swiss Bishops' Conference in Basel, 24 January 2005


In the Orthodox tradition the theme of primacy is closely connected with that of church authority, which, in its turn, is for the Orthodox theologian indivisible from the idea of 'catholicity' or 'conciliarity.'

As is well known, for various historical reasons the Orthodox Church never had and to this very day does not have a unified administrative and governing structure. Among the primates of the Local Orthodox Churches the Patriarch of Constantinople is recognized as the 'first among equals,' who has borne the title 'Ecumenical' since Byzantine times. However, neither this title nor the pre-eminence of honour accorded to him give the Patriarch of Constantinople any jurisdictional rights outside the boundaries of his own patriarchate.

The primacy of the Patriarch of Constantinople took form gradually. Decisive events in its genesis were the elevation of Constantinople to the capital of the empire and the granting of the status of 'New Rome' in the fourth century, as well as the division of the Churches in the eleventh century. The Second Ecumenical Council (381) in its third canon decreed: 'The Bishop of Constantinople shall have the primacy of honour after the Bishop of Rome, since this city is the New Rome.' The Fourth Ecumenical Council (451) indicated the following motivation for this decision: 'The fathers properly gave preference to the see of the Ancient Rome since this was the imperial capital. For the same reasons the 150 holy bishops also granted equal privileges to the most holy see of the New Rome, rightly judging that the city that received the honour of being the city of the emperor and the senate and having equal privileges with the Ancient Rome should also be elevated in church matters, just as the former was, and that it might be second after it.' Thus, the primacy of the Bishop of Rome was viewed by the Eastern Fathers not as something conditioned by the succession of this bishop from Apostle Peter, but as based upon the political significance of Rome as the capital of the empire. In exactly the same way the privileges of the see of Constantinople were based not on its ancientness (the sees of Jerusalem, Alexandria and Antioch were more ancient) or any ecclesiastical grounds, but exclusively on the political significance of Constantinople as the 'city of the emperor and the senate.'

However, after the unity between the Western and Eastern Churches was disrupted in the eleventh century, the pre-eminence of honour among the Orthodox Churches went over, as it were, automatically to the Patriarch of Constantinople. This primacy was kept even after Constantinople ceased to be the 'city of the emperor and the senate' in the middle of the 15th century and the Byzantine Empire ceased to exist. During the reign of the Ottoman Empire the Patriarch of Constantinople enjoyed privileges as the 'ethnarchos' of the Greek nation and in fact headed the entire Orthodox population of this empire. However, his authority did not extend beyond the boundaries of the Ottoman Empire. The formation of nation states in the 19th and 20th centuries in territories that were formerly under the Turks led to the emergence of new autocephalous Churches outside the jurisdiction of Constantinople.

At present there are 15 Local Orthodox Churches, each of which is fully independent in questions of internal governance and is in no way subject to Constantinople. This structure of governance gives rise to an entire array of inconveniences, one of which is the absence of a supreme arbiter in cases when differences or conflict arise over ecclesiastical questions between two or more Local Churches. In the Orthodox tradition there is no mechanism to guarantee the resolution of such differences. Therefore in each concrete case questions are solved differently: sometimes inter-Orthodox consultations are convened, the decisions of which, however, have only a consultative character and are not binding for the Local Churches; in other cases two Churches in conflict seek solutions through bilateral negotiations or invite a mediator.

Another inconvenience caused by the absence of a single administrative system of governance in the Orthodox Church is the impossibility of resolving the question of the pastoral care of the so-called 'diaspora.' The essence of the problem can be explained thus: since the 1920s the Patriarchate of Constantinople has laid claims to the right of ecclesiastical jurisdiction over those countries which do not belong to the Orthodox tradition, while other Local Churches continue to have their diasporas in Europe, the USA and in other continents and do not intend to give them up. As a result in certain European cities, for example, there are several Orthodox bishops, each of whom takes care of the flock of his own Local Church. The question of pastoral care of the diaspora can be resolved only by a Pan-Orthodox Council. Preparations for such a Council were made rather intensively over the course of 30 years (beginning with the 1960s and continuing until the beginning of the 1990s), but at the current time they have been stopped due to differences between Churches over the status and agenda of this Council.

Thus, in the Orthodox Church there is no world-wide, external mechanism to guarantee conciliarity, there is no external authority - neither one person nor in the form of a collegial organ - to guarantee the unity of the Church in ecclesiastical questions. This, however, does not mean that catholicity in the Orthodox Church exists only in theory. In practice catholicity at the inter-Orthodox level is expressed, firstly, by the fact that all Local Orthodox Churches are in full Eucharistic communion with each other. Secondly, Orthodox Churches are concerned to maintain the unity of doctrine, for which inter-Orthodox consultations are convened in case of need. Thirdly, the primates or official representatives of Churches meet with each other from time to time to discuss important questions, or exchange official letters. Thus, even in the absence of a Pan-Orthodox Council the Orthodox Church world-wide maintains its character of catholicity, in spite of the absence of clear mechanisms to guarantee this conciliarity.

Generally speaking, in the Orthodox tradition the idea of catholicity is much more organically connected with the idea of the local Church (here we use the term 'local Church' in order to avoid terminological confusion caused by the use of the term 'Local Church,' which, in its current usage, has a different meaning: cf. the explanation of this below) than with the idea of the Ecumenical Church as the totality of local Churches. Originally the Church of Christ was the community of Christ's disciples in Jerusalem: this was the very one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church which possessed the fullness of catholicity and conciliarity. Already in the first century Christian communities began to appear outside of Jerusalem, and each local community was viewed not as part of the Ecumenical Church, but as the very 'catholic' Church in all its fullness. The guarantee of the catholicity of each local Church, i.e. the Church of each concrete region, was the presence in it of a single Eucharistic gathering headed by the bishop as the chosen head of God's people.

It is precisely this kind of ecclesiology that is characteristic for the early Church Fathers, including St. Ignatius of Antioch. In his epistles Ignatius untiringly stresses the supreme role of the bishop as the head of the Eucharistic gathering, asserting that 'one should view the bishop as the Lord Himself' (Eph. 6). Everything in the Church should be done with the knowledge of the bishop: 'Without the bishop nobody should do anything that concerns the Church. Only the Eucharist served by the bishop or by those whom he himself authorizes should be considered true. Without the bishop it is not permissible either to baptize or serve the meal of love; on the contrary, whatever he approves of is pleasing to God' (Smyrn. 8). And further: 'He who honours the bishop is honoured by God; he who does something without the knowledge of the bishop serves the devil' (Smyrn. 9). Ignatius constantly underscores the necessity of the unity of presbyters and deacons with their bishop: 'The bishop presides in God's place, the presbyters occupy the place of the council of Apostles, and the deacons are entrusted with the service of Jesus Christ' (Magn. 6); 'The presbytery is in harmony with the bishop like the strings of a zither' (Eph. 4). God's people, according to Ignatius, should 'honour the deacons as a commandment of Jesus Christ, and the bishop as Jesus Christ, Son of God the Father, and the presbyters as God's gathering, as the choir of Apostles' (Tral. 3). This ecclesiology brings Ignatius to the following classical formula: 'Wherever the bishop shall be, there let also the people be, just as wherever Christ is, there is the catholic Church' (Smyrn. 8).

The supreme role of the bishop, according to the teaching of the early Fathers, is due to the fact that he occupies the place of Christ in the Eucharistic gathering. It is this understanding that explains the fact that the so-called monarchic episcopate - one bishop in each Eucharistic community or Church - became generally accepted in the ancient Church. Being the single leader of the Church of a given locality, the bishop nevertheless governs the Church not single-handedly, but in conjunction with the presbyters and deacons. The bishop does not possess ecclesiastical power or authority by himself, due to his ordination to the episcopate: he is a member of the local church community which entrusted him with this service. Outside the church community the bishop's ministry loses its meaning and efficacy.

Within the local Church the primacy of the bishop is unconditional and uncontested. For the Orthodox tradition, founded both on the theological legacy of the Fathers of the ancient Church (such as St. Cyprian of Carthage), as well as on later polemical writings of Byzantine theologians, each bishop, and not only the Bishop of Rome, is the successor of Apostle Peter. Barlaam of Calabria, an important Byzantine theologian of the 14th century (who, incidentally, ended his life in the Catholic Church), writes: 'Each Orthodox bishop is the vicar of Christ and the successor of the apostles, so that if all bishops of the world were to apostatize from the true faith and only one were to remain the keeper of the correct dogmas, the faith of the divine Peter would be saved in him.' He further writes: 'The bishops ordained by Peter are the successors not only of Peter, but also of the other Apostles; to the same degree bishops ordained by others are the successors of Peter.'

The promise given to Peter, according to this viewpoint, extends not only to the Roman Church, but also to all local Churches headed bishops: 'you have made Peter into the teacher of only Rome', an anonymous author of a Byzantine anti-Latin treatise writes, 'while the divine Fathers interpret the promise given to him by the Saviour as having a catholic meaning and concerning all believers past and present. You attempt to give it a false and narrow interpretation, applying it only to Rome. It then becomes impossible to understand how not only the Roman Church, but all Churches have a Saviour and how their foundations rest on the Stone, i.e. on the confession of Peter, according to the promise.'

How does the catholicity of a local Church relate to the catholicity of the Church throughout the world? Protopresbyter John Meyendorff defines this relationship in the following manner: 'The idea of the local Church headed by the bishop, who is usually chosen by the entire Church but is invested with the charismatic and apostolic functions as the successor of Peter, is the doctrinal foundation of catholicity as it entered the Church from the third century. For the Eucharistic ecclesiology assumes that each local Church, although possessing the fullness of catholicity, is always in unity and concord with all the other Churches, which also have part in this catholicity. The bishops not only bear moral responsibility for this community: they participate in the one episcopal ministry. Each bishop fulfils his service together with other bishops, since it is equivalent with that of the others and since the Church is one.' As St. Cyprian of Carthage writes: 'The episcopate is one, and each of the bishops fully participates in it.'

Everything mentioned above about the 'local Church' relates to the ecclesiastical unit which is nowadays called a 'diocese,' i.e. a Church of one region (country, territory) headed by one bishop. In modern Orthodox parlance the idea of the 'Local Church' has come to signify larger church entities - groups of dioceses united into Patriarchates, metropolites or archdioceses. At this level the principle of primacy gives way to collegial forms of government. In practice this means that the primate of a Local Church is the 'first among equals' among the bishops of his Church: he does not interfere in the internal affairs of the dioceses and does not have direct jurisdiction over them, although he is granted some coordinating functions in questions that exceed the competence of the individual diocesan bishops.

Although the rights and duties of the primate vary in different Local Churches, there is not a single Local Church that accords him supreme authority, for it is the council that has always been the final authority. For example, in the Russian Orthodox Church dogmatic authority is granted to the Local Council, in which not only bishops, but also clergy, monastics and laity participate, while the highest form of hierarchical government is the Bishops' Council. As for the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia, he governs the Church in cooperation with the Holy Synod during periods between councils, and his name is commemorated in all dioceses before the name of the ruling bishop. In the Orthodox Church of Greece there is no Local Council that includes the participation of laity: the final authority rests with the Bishops' Synod, chaired by the Archbishop of Athens and All Greece. At church services, however, only the Synod, and not the Archbishop, is commemorated.

The unification of local Churches into larger ecclesiastical units goes back to the 3rd and 4th centuries and is reflected in the canon law of the Orthodox Church. The 34th Apostolic canon states: 'The bishops of all peoples should know the first among them and recognize him as the head, and do nothing that exceeds their authority without his consideration. Each should carry out only that which relates to his own diocese and to areas belonging to it. But the first among them should also do nothing without the consideration of all.' The fourth canon of the First Ecumenical Council (325) prescribes that the ordination of bishops be carried out by all, or at least three, bishops of the given area, while the confirmation and approval of these ordinations are subject to the metropolitan.

Thus, already in the fourth century we can make out a system in which each bishop possesses the fullness of hierarchical authority inside his own ecclesiastical territory (diocese). However, they should consult with other bishops through the first among them - the metropolitan - in all matters that exceed their competence. The metropolitan, who is ordained by a number of bishops (normally, by all bishops of the region), is equal to other bishops in that he governs his diocese, where (and only where) he possesses the fullness of episcopal authority. At the same time he exercises certain authority over the other bishops of the metropoly in all matters that exceed the ecclesiastical authority of the latter. The metropolitan may not interfere in the internal affairs of the dioceses, but guarantees unity between them and resolves disputes. He does all this, however, not single-handedly, but in conjunction with the other bishops. This is exactly how the principle of conciliarity is realized in practice within the framework of a metropoly.

In the age of the First Ecumenical Council there existed several church territories that enjoyed the rights of metropolies. For example, the 6th canon of this council mentions the bishops of Alexandria and Antioch as having, along with the Bishop of Rome, authority over the bishops of their regions, while the 7th canon grants the same power to the bishop of Jerusalem. (During this period there existed other metropolies as well, e.g. those of Ephesus, Caesarea in Cappadocia, Heraklia, Milan, and Carthage, but later on their significance would weaken). After Constantinople was declared capital of the Eastern Empire, the bishop of Constantinople received the dignity of metropolitan, and was granted second place after the Bishop of Rome, as we already mentioned. It was later that he was accorded the title of 'Patriarch.' At the end of the first millennium the idea of the 'pentarchy' was developed in Byzantine theology, according to which the Ecumenical Church is headed by five Patriarchs - those of Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem. It is these Churches, as well as those which arose later on, that are called 'Local' or autocephalous in the Orthodox tradition.

It is known that serious differences between the East and the West in the understanding of the primacy of the Bishop of Rome arose already in the age of the Ecumenical Councils. In the West, the tendency that gradually led to the recognition of the Bishop of Rome as the pontifex maximus of the Ecumenical Church possessing the right to ratify the decisions of its councils, gained in strength. In the East the pope of Rome was seen as the primate of the Local Roman Church and the primus inter pares, reflecting the view that the decisions of the Ecumenical Councils did not require his confirmation. Many scholarly works have been published on this subject, and we do not need to elaborate on this issue. Nevertheless, it would be appropriate to at least give a general outline of the framework in which the primacy of the Bishop of Rome might be acknowledged by the Orthodox Churches should the Christians of the East and West unite into one Church.

First of all, the recognition of the primacy of the Bishop of Rome must be preceded by the restoration of the unity of faith, the unity of the dogmatic tradition of the ancient undivided Church. 'We should not contradict the Latins,' wrote St. Simeon of Thessalonica in the 15th century, 'when they say that the Bishop of Rome is the first. This primacy is not harmful to the Church. But only let them show that he is true to the faith of Peter and his successors; then let him have all the privileges of Peter, let him be first, the head of all and the supreme hierarch. Only let him be faithful to the Orthodoxy of Sylvester and Agathon, Leo, Liberius, Martin and Gregory, then we too shall call him apostolic father and the first among hierarchs; then we will be under his authority not only as under Peter, but the very Saviour Himself' (PG 145, 120 AC). The path to restoring the unity of faith thus lies in bilateral dialogue between theologians of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. The Orthodox are of the opinion that in this dialogue the Catholics must prove that their faith is identical to that of the ancient undivided Church.

The question of the jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome over the bishops of the Orthodox Churches in the case of the restoration of unity should also be decided within the framework of an Orthodox-Catholic dialogue. It would be irresponsible now to attempt to anticipate the results of this dialogue. The words of Simeon of Thessalonica quoted above even witness to, as it were, the readiness of the Orthodox to place themselves under the authority of the Bishop of Rome should the unity of faith be restored. However, it seems more plausible that the Orthodox Patriarchs will agree to accept only the 'primacy of honour,' and not the primacy of jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome. It seems that the Orthodox would not object to the Bishop of Rome enjoying the privileges of the 'first among equals' just as he did in ancient times and, perhaps, even fulfilling certain coordinating functions within the Ecumenical Church. However, they would hardly recognize the pope as the one head of world Christianity, which would contradict the centuries-long theological tradition of the Eastern Church.

The dogma of the infallibility of the pope ex cathedra in doctrinal questions is unacceptable for the Orthodox consciousness. This dogma of the First Vatican Council, in the opinion of the Orthodox, places the pope over the Church, for it states that the resolutions of the pope are not subject to changes 'due to the power inherent in them and independent of the acceptance by the Church.' In the Orthodox Church no bishop, including the primates of the Local Churches, possesses infallibility 'independent of the acceptance of the Church': it is precisely the acceptance by the Church that serves as the guarantor of truth and the main instrument of catholicity.

Finally, it should be mentioned that the question of primacy within the Ecumenical Church has not been solved even within world Orthodoxy, a fact which makes the discussion of this subject between the Orthodox and Catholics significantly more difficult. All the Orthodox agree that in the Orthodox Church there is no single head on a world-wide scale, no single supreme high priest. However, the Orthodox disagree in their understanding of the primacy and the role of the Patriarch of Constantinople. It is evident that a serious and responsible discussion of the theme of primacy at an inter-Orthodox level must precede theological dialogue over this topic between Orthodox and Catholics. Otherwise the Orthodox will not be able to express a unified point of view, which would inevitably bring the dialogue to a dead-end.

Summarizing that which was said about the relationship between primacy and catholicity in the Orthodox Church, it seems possible to assert that the principle of primacy in the Orthodox tradition is expressed most fully at the level of the single diocese, in which supreme authority rests with the bishop, who governs the diocese in conjunction with the clergy and laity. The principle of catholicity, on the contrary, is expressed most fully at the level of the Local Church, governed by a council of bishops headed by the primate chosen by this council. At the pan-Orthodox level the principle of primacy has not yet been wholly clarified, while the principle of catholicity exists without any stable mechanisms of its practical realization. Given such a decentralized structure of governance, some Catholics might see as a miracle the fact that the Orthodox Church continues to maintain the 'unity of the spirit in the bond of peace' (Eph. 4:3), and has not broken up into numerous independent ecclesiastical units having no communion with each other.

In the Roman Catholic Church, on the contrary, the principle of primacy finds its fullest expression in the ministry of the Bishop of Rome, whose jurisdiction extends to all subsections of this Church without exception: the canonical authority of all other bishops is derived from the authority of the pope as the successor of Peter. If the council is the highest organ of authority in the Orthodox tradition, to which all bishops without exception are subject, and infallibility is ascribed to the entire fullness of the Church, in the Catholic tradition the pope stands above the council, and it is he - independent of councils and even, as it were, independent of the Church itself - who possesses infallibility. For many Orthodox it may seem paradoxical and inexplicable that bishops' councils continue to be convened in the Catholic Church in spite of the complete centralization of power and its concentration in the hands of one person.

The extent of the compatibility of the two ecclesiological models outlined above can be revealed only by a full-fledged dialogue between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches on the question of the primacy. However, such a dialogue requires careful preparation, demanding serious theological efforts from both the Catholic and Orthodox sides. It is to be hoped that such efforts will be undertaken and that the dialogue will take place.

Taken from: http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles5/HilarionPrimacy.shtml

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I just read the commemorative book of the 'Millennium of Christianity in Ukraine - Rus" which the Ukrainian Youth Association (SUM / CYM) published in 1988. Pages 18 - 20 deal with their visit to the Ecumenical Patriarch. It's worthy to note that although the group consited of Greek Catholics they were representing both Ukrainian Orthodox and Ukrainian Greek Catholics who in 1988 in Soviet Ukraine were forced to worship in Russian Orthodox Churches. The Russian Orthodox was in full communion with the Ecumenical Patriarch.

According to the book the Ecumenical Patriarch inferred that "their group would be the foundation on which Christianity would grow in the next Millennium (in Ukaine). Some of his comments include:

"You must remain strong so that the next generation of Ukrainians will be able to fulfill the will of Grand Prince Volodymyr the Great. Honor your traditions and pass down your rich heritage to those following you."

It's worth noting that the Ecumenical Patriarch was fully aware of the fact that this diaspora group of nationalistic minded Ukrainians believed that their churches were being subjugated by the Soviet backed Russian Orthodox Church and that someday they would immerge and seek to re-allign themselves with the two great centers of Christianity: Rome and Constantinople. At no time did the Ecumenical Patriarch mention primacy of one bishop or another even though he was keenly aware of the fact that the youth group was returning to Rome to participate in the remainder of the 'Millennium of Christianity in Ukraine celebrations' with Pope John Paul II. Instead the Ecumenical Patriarch prayed with the Greek Catholic Youth group for the liberation of Ukraine from Communism and tyranny.

I think that Bob (Theophan) and the moderator have made some wise comments. Cool it ! Put back the knives ! etc.. Whatever the Pope, the Ecumenical Patriarch, and the Ukrainian people agree to will be their decision and a fulfillment of the will of Grand Prince Volodymyr (and equal to the Apostles) who sought to make Kyiv the center of Rus Christianity.

I.F.

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Originally Posted by theophan
I still don't know if this is an official statement or an editorial reading into something he said by an interviewer.

You know ... I'm starting to think this will turn out to be pretty simple. Namely, that the EP was simply saying that, relatively speaking, we are closer to seeing a "dual communion" situation than we are to seeing full communion between Rome and Constantinople. (That doesn't in any way imply that the EP thinks "dual communion" can happen now.)

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Originally Posted by asianpilgrim
Cardinal Trujillo is dead.

I was not aware of that, and am saddened by the loss of one of the few stalwarts left amongst the Roman hierarchy. I had a great deal of respect for his unflinching stand for the truth in the face of political and cultural pressure.

Vichnaja pamjat!

Alexandr

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I am sorry but shared Primacy is unfound in Tradition, there are plentiful Fathers who proclaim Peter alone, and his successor the Bishop of Rome as head, granted other Patriarchs, Bishops are successors to the Apostles and share in apostolic succession, but they have no authority whatsoever without being in union with the Roman Pontiff.


Cyprian of Carthage

"The Lord says to Peter: �I say to you,� he says, �that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church.� . . . On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).

Council of Ephesus

"Philip, presbyter and legate of [Pope Celestine I] said: �We offer our thanks to the holy and venerable synod, that when the writings of our holy and blessed pope had been read to you . . . you joined yourselves to the holy head also by your holy acclamations. For your blessednesses is not ignorant that the head of the whole faith, the head of the apostles, is blessed Peter the apostle�" (Acts of the Council, session 2 [A.D. 431]).

"Philip, the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See [Rome] said: �There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors�" (ibid., session 3).

Pope Leo I

"Our Lord Jesus Christ . . . has placed the principal charge on the blessed Peter, chief of all the apostles, and from him as from the head wishes his gifts to flow to all the body, so that anyone who dares to secede from Peter�s solid rock may understand that he has no part or lot in the divine mystery. He wished him who had been received into partnership in his undivided unity to be named what he himself was, when he said: �You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church� [Matt. 16:18], that the building of the eternal temple might rest on Peter�s solid rock, strengthening his Church so surely that neither could human rashness assail it nor the gates of hell prevail against it" (Letters 10:1 [A.D. 445).

"Our Lord Jesus Christ . . . established the worship belonging to the divine [Christian] religion. . . . But the Lord desired that the sacrament of this gift should pertain to all the apostles in such a way that it might be found principally in the most blessed Peter, the highest of all the apostles. And he wanted his gifts to flow into the entire body from Peter himself, as if from the head, in such a way that anyone who had dared to separate himself from the solidarity of Peter would realize that he was himself no longer a sharer in the divine mystery" (ibid., 10:2�3).

"Although bishops have a common dignity, they are not all of the same rank. Even among the most blessed apostles, though they were alike in honor, there was a certain distinction of power. All were equal in being chosen, but it was given to one to be preeminent over the others. . . . [So today through the bishops] the care of the universal Church would converge in the one See of Peter, and nothing should ever be at odds with this head" (ibid., 14:11).

can Peter err? sure can, but not when invoking infalbility given to him by the holy spirit, when teaching ex cathedra



Joined: Jul 2005
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Joined: Jul 2005
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Likes: 6
Originally Posted by Jean Francois
The union of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic and Ukrainian Orthodox Churche KP churches will necessitate a Patriarchate, something that the Ukrainian people have desired for over 1000 years. The Patriarchate will be recognized by Rome, Constantinople, and other Orthodox Churches, and will rapidly become a model of Church unity in our time. The Rusyn dream of an Orthodox-Catholic Faith will then spread to Belarus, Moldova, Romania, and other neighboring countries.

I.F.

Orthodoxy will not recognize this kasha, neither will Rome. At best, it would be a sect, at worst, it would embody the church of antichrist, a parody of God's Holy Church.

Alexandr


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