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Most Orthodox who say that the Filioque is non-heretical, and is compatiable with the eastern view are usally Ecumenist and Modernist who compromise so much just to look not so mean to the rest of Christianity, any way you know my opinion on. The Filioque is in direct contradition of scripture in the 1st place. You know which verse I speak of, how much more simplier can it get then that?

I read alot from "Center for traditionalist Orthodox Studies"
Even bishop Kallistos wasnt like he is now, his Older book was alot better.

In Christ
Daniel

Dear Daniel,

Saying something is not in Scripture directly is not the same as saying something is "heretical" or else that something cannot be deduced from Scripture.

That site you mention is hardly a site that most mainstream Orthodox priests and bishops would approve.

However, do you believe, with St John of Damascus and St Maximos the Confessor and with St Photios the Great that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son?

Hmmm?

Alex

I havnt given it alot of thought, I just know what I have heard and what I am taught. TCFTOS
they publish alot of good works. I just finished there book on the "Balamand Agreement", very good.

"mainstream" orthodoxy, that is so annoying and irritating. Just because its "Mainstream" doesnt mean its right. Fornication and sextual promescuity along with every thing excese is "mainstream" that doesnt make it correct.

In Christ
Daniel

A few thoughts in defense of ecumenism from my [most possibly flawed] understanding......

1. What is the Truth left by Our Lord, what group has it and how do we know?

A big question than can be addressed in a short post. My short [and imprecise] answer is "the Church founded by Our Lord Jesus Christ which maintains legitimate historical and doctrinal continuity and apostolic succession".

An important subset of this question is "has the Church's 'mainstream' abandoned the authentic teachings of our lord and does only small group X hold the authentic teaching?".

I wondered about this on the Latin side, SSPX versus the Pope. A comparison of the new Cathecism versus the SSPX settled it for me. On the Pope's side I could find a reasonably understandable and charitable attempt to teach the Faith. On the SSPX side I could only find even stranger divisions, e.g. SSPX versus Society of St. Pius V (over, in essence, what songs should be sung at Mass), arguments about how long one's cassock should be, whether the Pope is simply in error or if the seat is now vacant (and whether I should swear allegiance to Pope Pius XIII or John XXIV or whoever else).


2. The last question being settled, is it desirable to persuade others of this truth and how do we do it?

The answer to the first part is "yes".

I frankly believe that the only way to do this is by being friendly and open about it, and not antagonizing others by yelling "You are [pick your doctrinal problem]ist ecumenical pan-heretic and your so-to-call-it church has no grace", even if you believe this is true. (I am personally uncomfortable running around declaring person X is full of grace and person Y isn't, presuming by logical extension that I am).

Since the nature of division or disbelief in a given group of people is different, ths requires a different approach for members of the universal Church (of any rite or splinter) not in communion with Rome than it does for Protestant "Churches" who nevertheless believe in the Trinity, with modern atheist/agnostic hedonists, or any other given person out there.

Thus, persuasion involves knowing and believing the Truth very strongly, and from there going to those of different beliefs, befriending them and engaging them seriously in rational discussion, and using whatever openings you can to teach the True Faith. This is what I view as ecumenism.

True ecumenism maintains the faith, and what some do by watering down their own faith is not ecumenism.

Ahh, I've gone on far to long about a subject I have no background in.

In Christ,

Marcus, a fallen sinner and utter novice

[BTW I'm trying a new avatar. Comments on its appearance, appropriateness, suitability etc. are welcome by email, PM, or even post if you feel it necessary]

Obviously the standard of infallibility is: who has the longest beard?
Seriously, Daniel, I am praying for you. I am assuming from your posts that you are a young guy. I appreciate your desire for truth and purity but in all honesty you sound in danger of going off the deep end. I understand the zeal but the most extreme thing you can find is not always the truth....

Dear Daniel (the Orthodox ),

I admire your zeal!

It is best to keep a balance in our religious reading and try to avoid, as much as possible, articles written by those who themselves believe that much of Orthodoxy has fallen away and that they alone represent "true Orthodoxy."

An important part of our constantly unfolding experience of intellectual discovery through reading is knowing something about the authors of what we are reading.

Who they are and what they personally believe will come out in their writings which will always be presented as the "ultimate truth."

I think we need to reflect on that before we take what they write as such.

If you want to be Orthodox (out of communion with Rome), that is one thing.

To be into traditionalist writings that see most of Orthodoxy as being in error and schism - while moving to join a Church of worldwide Orthodoxy - that is something altogether different, as, some of us here, believe you may be in for some unnecessary problems - unfortunately, of your own making.

If you feel I have an axe to grind, I'll stop corresponding with you.

But see what the Administrator and others here have told you, all in a spirit of true Christian charity and concern for you - and please do reflect on it.

May God bless you and lead you to where your soul will find joy in the Presence of the Lord.

Alex

If Boot Camp is anything like Officer Candidate School, he won't have time for any morning or evening prayer rules! A Jesus Prayer or two will have to suffice. Throw a few in when standing for hours at attention, and you are good to go.

Hoorah, Devil Dog!!

Justin

Yea, I proabley wont have time. Especially on a big training day. Ill just memorize a few.

In Christ
Daniel

C.T.O.S.

Their writings are good, Ive been told that from priest in "Mainstream" Orthodoxy what ever that means, This group doenst consider them selfs the only reminance of Orthodoxy in the world, they are in Semi-Communion with ROCOR. They arnt like the HOCNA, who are the only Orthodox left in the world :rolleyes:

My priest holds "Traditionalist" Orthodox Ideas, and is in "world" Orthodoxy, and has no conflict in it, and I dont either, not a problem for me. I wont read Material printed by groups who think there the only true Orthodox left in the world, because thats just crazy.

I know where the liberalism begins where it gets to Traditionalism and where it gets to Crazy. I know when enough is enough.

In Christ
Daniel

Dear Daniel,

As you can see, you've left Cizinec speechless!

Alex

Daniel, assuming that you would like to make sense, be advised that your statement is false.

I was thinking about you saying the Filioque is not a heresy, so I started to go through some of my Orthodox books. I picked up the Orthodox Church by Bishop + Kallistos, and indeed he says that the Orthodox Church does consider the Filioque a heresy, then he says but there are a (FEW) Orthodox who dont think so.

You Can find this on I believe page 50-51.
He is a Orthodox Theologian not to mention bishop. Bishop + Kallistos says the Orthodox Church thinks its a heresy, so what am I supposed to think?

In Christ
Daniel

Daniel,

Forget about what others think, and investigate these questions for yourself. Just because someone says that something is or isn't heretical doesn't make it so. In authentic Christianity one should never check your brain at the door, but should rather continue the pursuit of truth. Stop taking what anti-Catholic polemecists say at face value, and really question their motives. Also, don't blindly follow the teachings of your new "spiritual father" without doing some independent investigating. You are are smart guy, Daniel, and you owe at least that much to yourself.

Anthony