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Bishop + Kallistos is Anti-Catholic?
He is an Orthodox Theologian more improtantly
an Orthodox Bishop. We learn from our Clergy,
and he is Clergy, no reason why I should ignore what he is saying in his book, he is infact in
"World" Orthodoxy. I have "investigated" all the issue that have lead to my conversion to Orthodoxy, i.e. Papal Primacy, Infaliblity, ect...
I just dont buy it any more, the history is not there. I cant believe in some thing that is not what Jesus intended to be and that which I believe to be heresy.

In Christ
Daniel

Also,

Every one is going to have ther Bias and reasons for doing/believing certain things. For example,
I talked to a Byzcath priest, who I told I was leaning towards Orthodoxy, he admitted that he was trying to "Church Up" the Catholic Church, to try to get me to stay. Its every were is just a personal thing that the individual has to deal with. This thread has been way to much to for me so I am not going to post on this specific one any more, thanks for the chating.

In Christ
Daniel

The Orthodox Church: Bishop + Kallistos Ware (Page 51, 2nd Paragraph - The Great Schism)

Reading this passage from his Grace Bishop + Kallistos book, does give us the impression that a majority of Orthodox Christians in the world do infact believe the Filioque to be a Theological Heresy. Just a final note for my last post.

In Christ
Daniel

P.S. To whom ever started this thread, sorry for getting so far of topic.

Daniel,

What edition of Bishop Kallistos' book are you reading? He has been excoriated for changing in the second edition to a "dovish" outlook on the filioque.
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/phronema/review_tow.htm

The issue of heresy of the filioque is more subtle than you seem to realize. Heresy cannot be found in the word itself, but in its theological understanding. Fr. Romanides identifies three different understandings of the filioque and considers one (two?) completely orthodox and one heretical. http://www.romanity.org/htm/rom.17.en.the_filioque_in_the_dublin_agreed_statement_1984.01.htm

Your posts, to be frank, give little indication that you have "investigated" in any substantive sense. They suggest, moreover, that you may very well be overestimating your ability to discern "what Jesus intended", let alone what is heresy or what is history.

So what are you really doing, Daniel?

Daniel,

Of course I am not speaking of Bishop Kallistos when I warn you not to blindly listen to anti-Catholic polemicists. I have met Bishop Kallistos in person, and we had a wonderful chat. He is truly a remarkable man. Also, I heard him say, with my own ears, that the Filioque is NOT heretical, and that he does not consider it to be the major problem that it once was.

Perhaps I am mistaken, but it seems to me that on the whole, Daniel, you are relying almost exclusively on the writings and opinions of certain Orthodox writers who begin with the assumption that the Catholic position is wrong. Have you read any scholarly works that defend the Catholic position? For example, have you seen the following book, which I always recommend:

Papal Primacy: From its Origins to Prest
by Klaus Schatz

It is an excellent, scholarly presentation of the Catholic understanding of papal primacy, drawn from Church history and the Fathers. It also has the virtue of being extremely sympathetic to Orthodox concerns.

Anthony

Dear friends,

Jesus, Peter and the Keys is also a very good book. It even draws from Orthodox and Protestant sources in defense of papal primacy. I highly recommend it.

Tammy

Dear Friends,

I think that right about now is the time to leave our brother, Daniel, alone.

He gets the picture .

He needs to do what he will do with or without our promptings and advice to him.

Perhaps it is truly God's Will for him - who can tell?

We've done our duty by way of words.

Now let's do our duty by way of prayer for Daniel.

From now on, it will be God Who will be directing Daniel - we've done our bit.

Daniel, listen to the Holy Silence and pray unceasingly.

We are with you in love and prayer always!

Alex

Alex,

While I appreciate your sensitivity for Daniel's situation, I respectfully disagree with you.

As long as Daniel is willing to continue the conversation, I am willing to engage him. He needs to be challenged. If he wishes to be left alone, he has only to stop posting replies to us.

I am afraid that he has fallen under the influence of certain exteme elements. Personally, I think too highly about Daniel to let him go down this path without putting up a fight for him.

Nor do I believe that it could possibly be God's will for him to be rebaptized. God does not want him to reject as "graceless" the way in which the Holy Spirit has been working in his life prior to suddenly discovering "the truth" that has somehow eluded the rest of us.

Anthony

Dear Anthony,

I"m not saying we shouldn't be speaking with him.

But I think we shouldn't be giving him the impression that if he becomes a member of an Orthodox jurisdiction that he's going to hell in a handbasket.

Daniel isn't the first Eastern Catholic to wish to become Orthodox.

Who knows how we'll end up, eh?

And it won't be the first time in history that Catholics entering Orthodoxy would do so by baptism. Ukrainian Orthodox would often be "rebaptised" by immersion since the Church of Kyiv in the 16th and 17th centuries baptized by sprinkling.

Is your sensitivity revealing something about your own inner thoughts - or struggles?

And is it true that you said, on EWTN, that Eastern Catholics have to recognize all 21 Councils, the first Seven Ecumenical and the 14 later Latin ones, together?

And the Administrator hasn't canonically penanced you for that yet?

Alex

What? Are you serious?!

Logos Teen

You are a lucky man.

-ray

I read over the thread and cannot find anything that could be characterized as implying that Daniel is going to hell, Alex.

Daniel Congratulations on yur decision to vilunteer to servie in the Defenseof our courtry. Brian said something about not havig time for lenghty morning and evening prayers. Very true. But before I went to Basic Training in the Army, my uncle who was a Marine Corps DI at Paris Island gave the advise before I shipped out theat I shoud take several good paperback books. you will be given at least of space 6"x4"x8" that yu can wrap personal items in a towel and officwers will not look at during inspections. The books i recommend would be readings from the fathers- short pieces of a page or two for "Hurry up and wait" sytndrome Since you will be tought to wait in the meddle of nowhere for nothing for hours on end, these qaulity books will be your best senity survival guide. I know that they wre for me. Be happy, I dont thik that they are allowed to punch you anymore. Memorizeas many mediaation startes as can for the lonely times. Parts of Boot Camp will become foond memories. You will probably have to make do whth the military Chaplains on base so hook upo with them no matter what faith theyu are. You willl not get off base much. I will pray for you and inclde you in our weekly international prayer group for your sa;fety, God Bless. I am alos sonfused and unsure about the Uniate vs Orthodox. Having beeen raised in the Latin rite except for Weddings and funertals in the Bysandtine rite, I am working and struying my way eastward with encouracement form my spiritual Directors. Cliff

Dear djs,

Just simmer down, Friend!

I just think we need to respect Daniel's decision.

Do we not say, on this forum, that the two Churches are "Sister Churches?"

What is wrong if someone feels called to join an Orthodox jurisdiction, even one that requires one to be rebaptised?

We are beginning to set a bad example to some of our Orthodox friends here who really DO feel we're being mean to Daniel and that we're talking out of both ends of our mouths on the subject of Catholic-Orthodox Ecumenism.

Or so they say!

Alex

Dear Teen Logo,

Yup, the Kyivan Baroque period saw a number of Western practices come into the Kyivan Church, especially during the time of St Peter Mohyla the Metropolitan.

This was one of them and is treated at some length by the Ukrainian Orthodox Metropolitan, Ilarion Ohienko, in his book on (now Saint) Arsenius Matsievich and his Patrology.

Alex