www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Liturgy Language: Soaring Poetry vs. Bumpy Prose

As to the budget, I simply have no knowledge of the financial budget of the BCA. So I just don't have anything to say. Do you have numbers to post or cite to? I'd be willing to look them over.

Felix,

to repeat what you said to Alexandr, "I don't mean to be rude" but clearly you are misinformed on the history of the Liturgy in the BCA or just not following my point.

The Red Book was mandated by Rome in the 1960s but it was NEVER implemented across the BCA. So I am not clinging to something from my past. The change would be to celebrate the Red Book as Rome asked the BCA to do in the 1960s. Following the rubrics, (i.e. closing and opening of the Royal Doors, liturgical curtain, etc.) properly would be a change. You are defeating your own point by stating that people are afraid of change. Yes, the hierarchs in the BCA don't want to 'change' and implement and celebrate the Red Book. They don't want to 'change' and celebrate Vespers and Matins at the majority of BCA parishes. They don't want to 'change' and have three verse anthiphons. They don't want to 'change' and take all the proper litanies. etc. etc. etc. Do you realize that all the above has never happened on a large scale (or really any measurable scale) during our lifetimes? Do you see what the 'change' would be? Are you against change?

Monomakh

Do you think that time was spent by the liturgical commission doing the new translation and music? If the answer is yes, then take that time and put it to evangelizing. If the answer is no, then I don't know what to say.

Do you think that the printing, distributing, etc. of the new books was free or cost money? Do you think that the travel costs of all involved in the RDL was free or cost money? All of the other expenses on the RDL, do you think they were free or cost money? Do you need an exact number in order to realize that these funds should have been used for evagelizing rather than revising? I invite you to go through the parishes in Ohio and PA and see the decline that has occurred both before and after the RDL. When you see parishes like Holy Ghost in Cleveland with 8 people on a Sunday, and countless parishes with 0-2 people under 20 years old and the vast majority with grey hair, I think that then you'd see where I am coming from.

Monomakh

M. - I think we were speaking about two different things. I see those writing to Rome as people who are mad that the RDL was implemented. Maybe I am wrong, but I am not aware of any pro-1965 group that was of the force that currently exists before the RDL. Thus, the group does exist as a reaction to change. The change that got them started is in relation to the Eight Years Old Rule. It makes no difference that the text they currently advocate for was not in universal use in the past.

Monomakh,

This decline is a fact that pains me greatly. I am angry and sad. I want to blame others, but I know I was/am part of the problem. I wholly agree with you that it is very sad.

The Orthodox priest near me was recently sent here because the parish in PA that he was the rector of was "dying." Its very sad. I don't know what to do or how to help.

That being said, I am not sure the RDL process has hurt or helps the situation. I don't have access to the information necessary to make a conclusion. As to the budget, I just don't have enough information.

I don't understand why you are uncomfortable admitting that utilizing every penny and every second on growing and evangelizing the BCA would have better than revising and dividing. When parishes around the country (especially in Ohio and PA) are closed down in the next 5-10 years due to lack of laity and clergy I wonder what the explanation will be?

Monomakh

The Seventh Ecumenical Synod says in the 8th Decree: "If one violates any part of the CHURCH Tradition, either written or unwritten, let him be anathema.


�The poison of heresy is not too dangerous when it is preached only from outside the Church. Many times more perilous is that poison which is gradually introduced into the organism in larger and larger doses by those who, in virtue of their position, should not be poisoners but spiritual physicians.�
+Metropolitan Philaret


Never before on this earth has there been such a huge number of people who freely and easily, without any shame, without any pangs of conscience "call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" (Isaiah 5:20).

Archbishop Averky of Syracuse (of Blessed Memory)


"Our canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers. Neither had our faith its beginning at this time, but it came down to us from the Lord through his disciples. That therefore the ordinances which have been preserved in the Churches from old time until now, may not be lost in our days, and the trust which has been committed to us required at our hands; rouse yourselves, brethren, as being stewards of the mysteries of God, on seeing them now seized upon by aliens."

St Athanasius the Great


"To all things innovated and enacted contrary to the Church tradition, teaching, and institution of the holy and ever-memorable fathers, or to anything henceforth so enacted, ANATHEMA." From the Synodicon of the Holy Spirit (to be read on the second day of Pentecost

... Our distresses are notorious, even though we leave them untold, for now their sound has gone out into all the world. The doctrines of the Fathers are despised; apostolic traditions are set at nought; the devices of innovators are in vogue in the Churches; now men are rather contrivers of cunning systems than theologians; the wisdom of this world wins the highest prizes and has rejected the glory of the cross. Shepherds are banished, and in their places are introduced grievous wolves hurrying the flock of Christ. Houses of prayer have none to assemble in them; desert places are full of lamenting crowds. The elders lament when they compare the present with the past. The younger are yet more to be compassionated, for they do not know of what they have been deprived. All this is enough to stir the pity of men who have learnt the love of Christ; but, compared with the actual state of things, words fall very far short...

Saint Basil the Great
(Letter 90)

The very saints cry out at the machinations of revisionists, whether Catholic or Orthodox. Let Saint Basil's words be a living reproof to those who dare to trivialize the Church and Her Sacred Traditions.

Alexandr

I think America is changing. For better or for worse, less people are going to some churches. I don't know enough about the budget, or about the success rate and expense of missionary efforts, or about the statistical effect of the RDL to comment further. That's my position.

However, I am often frustrated that we don't have more missions being started. But maybe we need enough priest for the parishes we have first. Of course, then we have the nationwide vocations crisis to thank.

I'm glad that Saints Cyril and Methodius didn't need a lot of data to perform missionary activity

Alexandr,

I am not sure how any of this is dispositively on point? Should I turn myself in to the local priest and declare myself a heretic?

Ok, obviously you think I am trivializing the Church and "Her Sacred Traditions." I don't think I am going to respond to such rhetoric filled allegations.

If we are going to drop quotes, I would note the following Eastern Catholic canon should be considered:

Canon 402:

�Lay Christian faithful have the right to have recognized that freedom in the affairs of the earthly city which belongs to all citizens; when they exercise such freedom, however, they are to take care that their actions are imbued with the spirit of the gospel and take into account the doctrine set forth by the magisterium of the Church; but they are to avoid proposing their own opinion as the teaching of the Church in questions which are open to various opinions."

As I understand it, little of the great movement caused by C & M happened during their lifetime. That being said, I think we can both agree that the world would be a better place if I were more like C & M.

Ok, I've just joined in on this thread. I was a cradle Byzantine Catholic until almost two years ago. I'm now Orthodox. You did not attend church at all until eight years ago? I almost want to say you are like a rookie policeman who has no opinion until he has some experience.

I never heard a Red Book Liturgy in the BCC, until I visited a parish that had some very traditional parishioners and a priest who really knew how to celebrate the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom the way it should be celebrated. They were the only one in town that did it the right way. How they got away with it, I'll never know. I just wonder how that parish is doing now!

Many have left for Orthodoxy, or have quit going altogether because what they have known and loved for years has been deemed unnecessary by a few who think they know what they are doing.

Continued prayers for the Ruthenian Greek Catholic church.

Felix, my friend, what I quoted to you is not my personal interpretation, it is the teaching of the Church. Those quoted were not just any Tom Dick or Harry, but saints of the Church. When bishops err, as in the case of the BCC bishops, it is the right, nay, the mandated responsibility of the faithful to stand for the truth and return the episcopacy to Christ. History bears me out on this.

Alexandr

I agree, I have never seen a liturgy as you describe.

Alexandr,

The part that I claim is your personal opinion is that the bishops are erring by implementing the RDL. I think the Canon I quoted applies to that personal opinion. Its certainly not explicit official Church teaching that the bishops are erring re the RDL! No such official statement or teaching has been authoritively set forth by the Church.

I don't dispute the quotes, but I don't agree with them being applied to my posts as if I am anathema or something. That's no way to have a constructive discussion.