www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy One Year Anniversary

Felix,
Check out St.Seraphim OCA Cathedral in Dallas. You live within an hour or so away. You will get the equivalent of the "Red Book" liturgy that the BCC should be using.

Just to warn you, however, you'll be in church for up to two hours.

Greek translations? What exactly were these "earliest Greek" versions that were the source of the RDL?

Was the 1965 liturgicon translation not "valid"? Presumably the Ruthenian Recension, its text, is our proper heritage; it is what has been handed down to us. Has anyone on the RDL translation committee or our bishops ever indicated otherwise? One should also recall Patriarch Nikon and his views on the superiority of the Greek over the Slavonic.

Legitimate questions have been raised about specifics of the translation and the status of the Recension. They deserve to be addressed and adequately and authoritatively answered.

We're "so caught up on words on a page" because if they are a poor translation -- the wrong words -- they will "resonate" incorrectly.

As "one with formal training in Theology", is dropping a word, anthropous, from the Creed in translation, a word with theological significance, "trivial"? The RDL is also an abridgment of the full text of the liturgy, which full version in English is now actually proscribed. Is that also "trivial"?

I would be cautious to call the translation that is the RDL "trivial", since many lifelong Byzantine Catholics are very upset by it.

It has caused too much dissension in a church that is a fraction of the size it used to be.

Excuse me? First of all, Greek translations from what? Second, I would scarcely regard the 1950 Rome edition of the Ieratikon as the oldest Greek text available!

Those who support the Revised Liturgy of Pittsburgh are certainly entitled to defend it. But I hope that they can do a better job than this!

Fr. Serge

Felix, if you do not have the time or emotional energy to post charitably and objectively you will not last long on this Forum.

FDRLB

If we are going to talk about the "feel", then we need to incorporate mandated abbreviations, inclusive modernist American translations, and new music many often find unsingeable into that "feel". I would posit the "feel" is more like modern neo-Latin American liturgy with these considerations than any fuller celebration of the Divine Liturgy in either Greek Catholic or Orthodox churches that I have experienced. For the sake of brevity I will only say I strongly disagree this translation to be in any way a more faithful translation from extant Greek texts than what is already present in the Greek Catholic or Orthodox world.

Quote:

Such people certainly exist; I have had the sad experience of meeting some of them every so often (although not, thank God, in my present parish). Father Archimandrite Robert Taft touches on this problem sometimes.

Basically, the case is one of "internalized oppression" and the conviction that our several traditions really have nothing to offer. One need not look to religious groups to find it - here in Dublin I can certainly find people (indeed, it's hard to avoid them) who think that Irish "culture" is non-existent and certainly worthless, that the Irish language is not really a language at all ("you can talk about cows" is a common expression), that the Irish Catholic tradition is nonsense - that Ireland is, or at least should be, that part of England where the Catholics live.

The diagnosis is not difficult. The cure is very difficult indeed. But it is not quite hopeless. Every once in a while, someone comes along and manages to convince people that Taras Shevchenko was correct when he exhorted the Ukrainians "learn from others, but do not despise what is your own!"

Fr. Serge

Diak,

I am sorry if my post appeared uncharitable. It was not my intention. However, I have found that whatever I say in regard to the RDL will always have a post written in response. If I don't respond to this post, it will appear that I might not disagee. I didn't want to get into another battle of endless posts on the RDL issue. That's all I was trying to say.

I am sorry if I offended anyone.

Felix

Etnick,

I appreciate your suggestion on this issue. Certainly the experience of a thing assists in understanding it. That being said, I have been to St. Seraphim's before. I have observed that the BCA RDL uses a more modern version of English and that there is more of an emphasis in congregational participation than that found at St. Seraphim's. I also know that the liturgy takes longer at St. Seraphim's, although the reasons for this does not usually seem apparent to the uneducated observer. I don't want to get into the merits of the differences, but I will say that I unequivocally prefer the BCA RDL. But I don't think my opinion matters more than anecdotally where the issue is of merits. If the BCA started using the Archbishop Dmitri texts required at St. Seraphim's it would be a reasonable decision that I would accept.

It has been suggested to me by private message that I should have been aware that the deacon who goes by "Diak" is a deacon and that I should post an apology for not addressing him as such. It has also been suggested to me that I should have checked his profile so that I would have known this.

I did know the deacon going by "Diak" was a deacon. It did not occur to me to address him formally in my post. I did know that some other people do so, but I did not know this was required in this informal setting where people commonly go by informal abbreviations. I am sorry if I offended him in this regard. It was not my intention. I typically consider people on this forum to be similar to friends and, thus, only retain formal titles with people of the priest level. This is how I have always treated my friends who are deacons. However, I was apprently in error as regards the forum.

Note - I have secular formal titles that I do not expect individuals on this forum to be aware of or to honor. However, the are honored by those addressing me in real life. One exception, my friends (and my wife and child).

In case I was unclear, Fr. Deacon, you have my apologies if I offended you.

I have quit discussing the RDL since emotions are so heated on this issue. And often, it is emotion, not reason or logic that I hear in many arguments. Who knows how the RDL will "shake out" over time. If God doesn't like it, or even if he does, I suspect he can and will direct whatever happens to it.

I never know what to write but I feel like I need to say something. My husband and I are among those who find the RDL to be so offensive we just don�t go to it. The words are all different and all that political correctness is offensive. The music is klunky and not even our cantor can sing it. Every few weeks our family visits a different non-Ruthenian BC parish. We hope we can find a new church not far from us but we really hope the RDL is cancelled by Rome or the bishops. A couple of weeks ago we went to St. Josaphat�s Ukrainian Church. We were surprised that there were children there. That is unusual in a Ruthenian BC Church were our kids made up a third of the ccd group. Back during Easter to St. Theodosius Orthodox Cathedral. We were surprised that they both take the Divine Liturgy the way we used to a long time ago. Father David Petras said on this forum that that the Orthodox Churches had already made all these changes. Well he is wrong. The liturgy is slightly different in ever parish but they are all really close to our old liturgy. And neither the Ukrainians nor the Orthodox are forbidding the prayers our bishops have forbidden. I still don�t understand why the bishops would ever forbid prayer. The Byzantine Liturgy is so beautiful. The bishops should allow it! Maybe Father Petras and the bishops should visit some of these churches to see how the liturgy is supposed to be taken. But didn't they see that in Europe they take the whole liturgy and the churches are full? Why can't they make the connection?

I strongly disagree. Most of the arguments I see here opposing the RDL are extremely reasoned and logical arguments.

Lady Byzantine's comments are excellent and deserve wide circulation.

Fr. Serge