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I believe that Anglophones overemphasize the distinction between the terms. French Lutherans do call their clergy by the same term as do Catholics. In Swedish, all clergy are called priester (priest) including the Baptists.

BTW, the Lutherans don't have high and low church parites. They tend to be consistant in their style. Interestingly, unlike the Episcopalians who wear the stole and the, if high church, the chasuable over it, Lutherans pastors regularly use the chasuable but object to wearing a stole under the chasuable. They hold an outward garment is "evangelical" -- it makes a statement consistent with the Gospel. While a non-visable garment is "ritualistic".

Danish Lutherans have weekly Mass (their term) and objected to an attempt to introduce Morning Prayer as "Catholic" i.e. a monastic office rather than a good evangelical communion.

K.

[This message has been edited by Kurt K (edited 07-23-2001).]

Administrator,

I see your point. Yet, might you have been a bit gentler with the poster? It was his first time. Just a thought.

I guess there is wackiness everywhere. Isn't it fun?

Dan Lauffer

Dear Kurt,

You make excellent points!

The more the Lutherans return to their old traditions, the more "Catholic" they become.

A Lutheran liturgist I had the pleasure of meeting quickly showed me about a dozen ways to make the Sign of the Cross as practiced in the various traditions.

We had lunch and he crossed himself in the Eastern manner.

When I asked him why he chose the Eastern Church's way, he simply smiled and said, "Don't you remember Martin Luther saying the East was the 'better half' of the Church of Christ?"

Talk about disarming . . .

God bless,

Alex

Dear Dan,

I applaud the Administrator for not sparing the rod, if that is what you saw him doing.

Courtesy is something we should always practice, but especially when we come into a new place for the first time!

At least that is what my grandmother, a presbytera, always taught me.

And the Adminstrator is a pussy-cat by comparison with her!

Alex

However, in the case of the Church of Sweden, they are already so close to the Catholic Church that there will be very little they would have to undergo by way of change if and when unity should come.

And their spiritual life as Christians does indeed engender a dynamic life of Grace among them, which is the Catholic teaching in any event


That may have been true 400 years ago but AFAIK not now (I admit I�ve never been to Sweden), considering that the Church of Sweden now has women ministers and the country is reputedly one of the most secular in the world. (India is one of the most religious; the US has been described religiously as a nation of Indians ruled by Swedes.)

I think what happened was the ordination of women was pushed through the Swedish parliament and imposed by law back when the church was the state religion. But the tiny percentage of Swedes who are active in the church are conservative and a lot of them didn�t want it.

Serge

<A HREF="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</A>

Dear Serge,

Yes, but . . .

The committed Swedish Lutheran laypeople, priests and monks I know are wonderful Christians and I am sure there are many more like them .

The fact that a Church may be "canonical" is not a guarantee that its members are in the "right" with God.

Which is not to say that Churches shouldn't be canonical . . .

And I think God may save a liberal or two in His own way

You never know . . .

Alex

Dear John (Dominus tecum),

After all that, WELCOME, to the forum!

We're all working to show our love for each other in the way we write to and about eachother, with greater or lesser degrees of success.

I can't speak for everyone, but I thought your apology was sincere and will be accepted. IMHO your second posting demonstrates courage and strength of character. The accompanying reference from
Sirach provides us with a great admonition.
The combination augurs well for a fruitful time on the forum.

I hope that you will continue to talk with us here in loving words. Strong words when needed but written from love. Again, welcome!

Please do not permit the written expression impede the meaning and the love!

JOY!

Personally, I find calling Protestants wacky, while objectionable, less so than suggesting women ministers destroy a 'dynamic life of grace in one's spiritual life'. I would refers others to my post elsewhere that an advantage of continued discussion of the question of women's ordination is that it allows the Church to separate itself from unchristian, anti-woman viewpoints held by strident opponents of women's ordination.

K.




[This message has been edited by Kurt K (edited 07-23-2001).]

Personally, I find calling Protestants wacky, while objectionable, less so than suggesting women ministers destroy a 'dynamic life of grace in one's spiritual life'.

[The attempted ordination of women in the Episcopal Church means] �the death of dialogue�.

� the late Fr Alexander Schmemann, Russian Orthodox/OCA and someone next to nobody has accused of being a bigot

Serge

<A HREF="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</A>

[This message has been edited by Rusnak (edited 07-23-2001).]

Joe,
Blesssings and greetings. Hoping that you will be enriched and grow as you study the faith.

I too was a convert many years ago from the Lutheran Association.

There is a wondeful book out at the moment called: "There We Stood Here We Stand."
11 Lutherans Rediscover their Catholic Roots.

Good book you should read it.

Peace,
Stephanos

I would never have thought that by including one word all these posts would have come flying in. Of course, one word has also been a factor in the separation of two churches for 10 centuries, so...

And, once again, I meant no insult to any Protestants when I made my post! As cizinec
said, "I prefer wacky." I am one the strangest people you will ever meet (please don't argue with me on this, it's true)

At any rate, Even though I am Catholic and most of my acquaintances are Catholic, my best friends are Lutheran (Missouri Synod). Also, at one point, my mom, my uncle, and my aunt, all of whom I am very close to, belonged to the Missouri Synod [my aunt still does!]. I have often tried my not-very-well-trained apologetics muscles on them, often resulting in more or less a stalemate, but always done in good faith.

But to describe a belief system, "wacky" was a bad word to use, maybe "misguided" is a better word?

Or am I digging myself in deeper?

Btw, inawe, thank you for your welcome. It was much appreciated.

- John


[This message has been edited by dominus tecum (edited 07-23-2001).]

<blockquote>
<hr>
Originally posted by Rusnak

AFAIK French Lutherans, like Germans, don�t claim apostolic succession nor use the word �priest� (pr�tre?).

<hr>

</blockquote>

This has nothing to do with this topic, but FYI...."pr�tre" is the French word for "priest," "�v�que" means "bishop," and "ministre" means "minister."

Just some cultural information.


[This message has been edited by dominus tecum (edited 07-23-2001).]

And he is not a bigot. For us Catholics, we continue our dialogue with the Anglican Communion. And even such a suggestion that it is an inpediment to dialogue with Protestantism is something I would take excpetion to, that is a far different claim than the bigoted accusation that accepting women minsiters destroys a dynamic life of grace.

Again, the former is an opinion that is not helpful to ecumenism; the later is an opinion that is bigoted.

K.

Kurt,

And even such a suggestion that it is an inpediment to dialogue with Protestantism...

The attempted ordination of women in the Episcopal Church means] �the death of dialogue�.

The good Father did not say "impediment". He said "death." Good for him!

Dan Lauffer

Well, I was trying to be charitable.

If it is "good" to say that women ministers means the death of dialogue (per the cited Orthodox authority), can we call our Catholic authorities (John Paul II, and others) "bad" for continuing a living dialogue with Anglicanism?

K.