www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy One Year Anniversary

Much to think about. I will look into all the points you have raised. Thanks.

Felix,

No one wants to argue with you about the RDL, this is not personal; it is simply a fact that hardly anyone on this forum likes it. I can tell you it is not just an "internet group" against it, as some in Pittsburgh have thought.

I do not know anyone in my parish who likes it all. It simply is not a good liturgy. Its use of inclusive language is unacceptable.

Blessings,

Lance

A Byzantine Christian in a Postmodern World [byzantinechristian.blogspot.com]

With the people I have talked to I find: 1) most do not care for the new music. 2) most are annoyed with translation changes for things they had memorized and sang often. 3) none have said anything about rubrical changes, except for those in parishes where Vesperal Liturgies have started and that is to complain about the length.

So, as I have said before, one must distinguish between the translation, the music, and the rubrics and what it is people don't like. The majority of those who don't like the RDL do not dislike it for the same reasons as the members of this forum do. The majority simply want their Blue Book Liturgy and Music back. Sadly they would probably dislike a complete Red Book Liturgy as much as the RDL.

Fr. Deacon Lance

How many have ever been to a Red Book liturgy? The parishes that did it were few and far between. I only know of one in the entire Cleveland area that did it.

Very few. The point is it is not the Liturgy itself, but the fact that it would be a change and it would be longer is why they would dislike it.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Monomakh-

In the mission Eparchy of Van Nuys (population approx 3000 souls among some 19 parishes) here is a simple overview-

Since 1994 (please keep in mind we have been celebrating a form of the so-called "RDL" at least since the episcopacy of his Grace, George (Kuzma), emeritus of Van Nuys,1991-2000):

5 men ordained to the priesthood (1 cradle Byzantine Catholic Slav, 1 Mexican-American, 2 Irish-Americans, 1 Anglo-American)

12 men ordained to the diaconate (2 cradle Byzantine Catholic Slavs, 4 Irish-Americans, 2 Mexican-Americans, 2 Greek-American, 1 Polish-American, and 1 Aussie-American). These numbers are exclusive of those deacons ordained to the priesthood.

1 seminarian currently at Ss. Cyril and Methodius, Mr. Diodoro Mendoza, Our Lady of Wisdom, Las Vegas, NV(Mexican-American)

2 candidates in diaconal formation

1 postulant entered Holy Annunciation Monastery of the Byzantine Carmelite Nuns in Sugarloaf, Miss Melissa Morrow, OLPH, Albuquerque, NM

Currently there are plans to establish at least 2 outreaches (Washington and Arizona). Our ability for further growth is hampered only by a lack of priestly vocations.

Regarding children- let's just say if you were to visit the pro-Cathedral parish in Phoenix, your children would be lost in the crowd of kids. Mysteries of Initiation are a regular celebration at our parish (approx 7 per year). Our families tend to be on the larger side. 4 children are about the norm. There are families with 6, 7, and 8 children.

Now I have grey hair, but there are quite a number of young dads in our parish. Some have grey hair, some are bald, and some dye their hair.

Do these "sucesses" develop as a direct result of the Divine Liturgy? Who knows.

The "success" of our parish may be related to how we perceive our Faith. Liturgy is an important expression of that Faith, but if we don't live our Faith beyond Sunday morning, no liturgical expression, no matter how faithful to the official books, will draw people to Christ.

In our parishes you will find Slavic-Americans, Mexican-Americans, Irish-Americans, Filipino-Americans, Arab-Americans, African-Americans, German-Americans, Korean-Americans, Polynesians, Chinese-Americans, etc. Some are 1st generation; some families have been in the US for generations. We do not see the liturgical patrimony of our Byzantine Church as an expression of a particular culture. We do see the liturgical patrimony of our Church as an expression of Faith that will transcend ethnic labels and provide the way for our intimate relationship with God. In turn, that relationship will allow us to develop proper relationships within and without the parish community in order to draw others to Christ.

Dear brothers and sisters,

Fr. Deacon John's post is a wise one; please let it sink in. I love my Rusyn roots and heritage. Our people were people of deep faith; more so than they were devoted to their culture. That is why they came to America. Perhaps if they could tell us what they think of their offspring we would not be very pleased; maybe they regret their decision to emigrate which exposed their ascendants to modern American "Hollywood culture" which many of us have succumbed to.

Secondly, our beloved cantors are nearly as critical to the BCA survival as our priests. But (with few exceptions) our priests have changed to the revised Liturgy. Why can't our cantors??? It exposes either a disobedience,lack of talent or a poor decision to change from the old local preferred tones to instead sing all the #1 versions (or whatever). The only Sunday Liturgical hymn for which our old version was completely dropped was the Incarnation Hymn (O only Begotten Son.) I don't claim to have been a real knowledgeable or talented (former)cantor, but after a year I can sing the new versions almost as well as the old, and most weeks I don't even have the notes in front of me. I'm not defending all the musical changes; just reminding the cantors that their vocation is a special one; it is a vocation of leadership which also requires obedience.

Thirdly, I was at the clergy meeting in May and I certainly did NOT hear any talk about preparing for the demise of our Church. There was some serious talk about how the smallest parishes may have to be closed because of the real and serious priest shortage. I can't fully agree that there is no alternative; I think the people would accept regularly scheduled reader or Typika services as am alternative.

Fourth, perhaps Pittsburgh and Cleveland have succumbed to the "me" mentality, but here in the more remote areas I haven't witnessed a decline in attendance due to the RDL. Now, some people have fallen asleep in the Lord, but I don't think it was because of the RDL.

I was much more naive in the 60' when our area started the Liturgy in the vernacular, but, as I recall, there was just as much if not more of a hubbub at that time. Our beloved cantor didn't complain about the changes that he had to accept, but out of love he worked with us kids so that we could learn the new language and, may I add, some very different music than what we were used to.

May the Price of Peace lead us all to peace in our heart.

Z'nami Boh!

Fr Deacon Paul

This goes back to a thread where I mentioned the short attention span that many people have. Too much of the Roman Catholic way of thinking has infiltrated the Greek Catholic church.

Three quarters of the people that attend my OCA parish are well over 65. They stand for the entire liturgy, and I've never heard one complain that almost two hours is too long.

The BCC has been latinized for too long to expect the people to stand or even be in church for more than an hour.

The sad fact is that the "Red Book" will never be the norm in the BCC, yet the same liturgy is the standard for the Orthodox world.

Try Saint Michael's, New York. The Divine Liturgy is not abbreviated, the people mostly stand throughout, including the sermon, the choir leads the assembly in singing simple Russian music (mostly in English), and I've never heard anyone complain of the length of the service (which is usually about 75-90 minutes).

Fr. Serge

I also suggest speaking with some of the former parishoners of the Gallup mission, who also started and then closed the only vocations/summer camp to my knowledge in that Eparchy and possibly in the entire Metropolia. This was a community composed almost entirely of younger families.

To add to Fr. Serge's post I would also highly recommend attending St. Elias as well - even not including Matins it is about the same length (90 minutes or so). You will not hear any complaints there about length of services.

I was in Cleveland for Fr. Deacon Daniel (Gordon's) ordination a couple of weeks ago and attended Pokrova for Sunday DL - literally standing room only for a regular Sunday liturgy, and lots of kids and younger families (and about two hours, including a Moleben).

"Three quarters of the people that attend my OCA parish are well over 65"

That is scary.

The Gallup outreach (not mission) has closed. Those pioneering souls had been making the trek to OLPH in Alburquerque. A few hours round trip. As I understand the organizing families moved away.

Your information on the "Alive in Christ" vocation camp, however, is incorrect. This men's vocation development ministry continues to thrive. In fact the 6th Annual Camp will take place July 5-8 at Palomar Christian Conference Center, near Escondido, CA. Registration is closed.

In addition, the Eparchy has launched a retreat for women. The Myrrh-Bearers Retreat is for women 7 years and older. Some 40+ women and young ladies from across the eparchy are on retreat this weekend, June 27-29 at Mount Claret Retreat Center, Phoenix, AZ. My wife and two of my daughters, ages 16 and 12, are making that retreat.

How much longer would a Red Book DL be?

Father Lance makes some very good points, and these are points many of us made to the bishops and others in authority repeatedly before the mandate of the Revisions. Pretty much everyone in the Church hates the reforms. Most do so for more than one reason but also everyone has different reasons.

Texts � I have done a side by side comparison of the 1964 text with various English sources (about 5 or 6 other liturgicons from various Churches (Catholic and Orthodox), Father Serge�s excellent review of the RDL and of the RDL texts themselves). As I have pointed out on numerous occasions there are a small number of true corrections that could have been well received with proper education. But most of the changes are unnecessary. Some reek of political correctness. The changes have only served to harm the faithful. Is it any wonder that the people hate the new texts?

Music � In 1964 the musical settings for the fixed texts of the Divine Liturgy were purposely set in a style that was slightly simplified. This was done in order to properly accent the English texts. While I do not agree with every note, I respect that much of what was done then has long been memorized and for most of the Church is prostopinije. Why was it necessary to reinsert past ethnicity into the chant by returning it to 1906, so severely that the accents are incorrect? I don�t see any justification for changing the music for the fixed texts, beyond those slight changes to accommodate the change of a word or two. Back in the late 1970s and early 1980s when I started setting music I used a very literal style for the changeable texts. I quickly learned 1) few would sing it because they didn�t like it and 2) the �as sung from memory in Slavonic� was, in fact, often quite different than Boksaj. There was no reason to treat Boksaj as canonical. Music changes over time to serve the faithful. Let it change. Also be open to new compositions and even some �American� music. [I am still puzzled that someone involved in preparing the RDL music railed against my 1984 Christmas Carol book because it was �polluted with American Hymns� such as �We Three Kings�, as I am about the non-inclusion of the Typical Psalms and Beatitudes to Russian Tone 1 because that melody � known and used in many parishes � was found unworthy since it wasn�t ethnic (Ruthenian) enough. I will also note the way to change music is to do so slowly, as I did over the course of 25 years.]

Rubrics � On this point I will only partially agree with Father Lance. People do not like change and, after 30+ years of abbreviated Liturgies change must be done with great care and gentleness. That is why I offered my 5-10 year plan to return most parishes to a fuller Divine Liturgy. I�ve seen it work. I know of several parishes that went from the most abbreviated Sunday Divine Liturgies to a very full �Red Book� (the full and official Ruthenian Divine Liturgy) in the course of a few years with great support and enthusiasm from the people. It was accomplished with comprehensive adult education and in the cases I know a number of people in each parish were asking for more at each step of the restoration process. The full Liturgy is still in the memory of most of our older people, so for them it is a return to what they had in childhood, and most often it sparks fond memories. I�ve seen the older people welcome Vespers and Matins when those services were celebrated roughly in the forms they remembered from the days before they were stopped. The point here is that it is far easier to restore something the people still hold in their collective memory, especially when the Church has offered prayer books with the same full text for the past 40 years. [There are still parishes that before the RDL were singing the �Hospodi pomiluj�s� for the little litanies between the antiphons. This indicates that there is still a memory of them, and even if not making the connection that the litany was there is very easy for people to make.]

Father Lance wrote: �The majority simply want their Blue Book Liturgy and Music back.�

This is precisely why one does not take away from people that which is perfectly acceptable. Respect what is good and already exists and build on it. This is where my restoration plan comes in. It is still not too late to implement it. (I use a 5-10 year time period but I�ve seen it done in as little as two years with great success. Ten years offers enough time to be very gentle.)

Liturgical Restoration Plan

Year 1
-Council of Hierarchs declares the official Ruthenian Recension as normative for the Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholic Church in America.
-New editions of the 1964 �Red Book� and the 1976 �Basil Book� are printed. Changes are limited only to those changes that are absolutely necessary (to correct what is actually incorrect). [And all changes are offered with full explanation and time for anyone to comment.]
-A new edition of the 1979 Levkulic Pew Book is prepared. The major change to the liturgical text in the front of the book is to include the entire text Divine Liturgy (every litany, antiphons in full). Other changes are limited only to correct what is wrong (using the principle that the more the text is used (i.e., fixed texts of the Divine Liturgy) the less one allows change (changing the text of the Creed is far more annoying to the faithful than changing the text of a prokimenon for a minor feast).
-A new music book is prepared changing only what is absolutely necessary. Beyond the standard �gray� and �green� and �black� book settings for the fixed text melodies parishes may return to the style they previously used for the changeable texts. Music for the changeable texts will also be published but should not be mandatory.
-Council of Hierarchs issues a directive that the normative style of celebration is the official Ruthenian Divine Liturgy, in full. Council of Hierarchs also issues authorized abbreviations. Roughly speaking in year one parishes would add back one missing element (for example, the litany after the Gospel). If the parish already had that they would add something else.
-The key to success is to light fires of enthusiasm among the clergy. This may be possible for the traditional Liturgy but we have seen there was no interest in the RDL. It will definitely be impossible with mandates, and when the clergy (and cantors) are excluded from the process.

Years 2-5 (or 2-10)
-Add back missing elements of the Divine Liturgy. Eventually the full Liturgy becomes the norm at all cathedrals and pro-cathedrals (I�d say no more than a 3-5 year restoration phase at cathedrals and pro-cathedrals). An authorized form of abbreviation remains but with each year or two more of the Liturgy is required.

-Vespers & Matins are reintroduced first at the cathedrals and pro-cathedrals (in their traditional form that older parishioners might remember). If they are well celebrated and well sung other parishes will want them. [And, most likely, they will spread first to the larger parishes and then to others.]

-Some parishes in areas that continue to loose population will continue to dwindle. For these parishes even simplified versions of prostopinje will be too complicated. The Melkite parish I worship at does not use the 8 Tone system for prokimney. They have one melody they use for everything (a very simply one). It works and the entire parish sings the prokimenon at the Liturgy. [This appears to be a hold over from the days when the parish was a mission, but it works for them.]

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I am certainly happy that there are some vocations coming from the Van Nuys Eparchy. Given that the number of people in greater Phoenix has quadrupled I am sure that there are enough people to form numerous mission parishes (there are plenty of Ruthenians and unchurched there who are not part of St. Stephen Pro-Cathedral). I pray there are active plans to serve these people.

I fully agree with Father John that we must be inviting and welcoming to anyone and everyone. I will note that some seem to equate those of us who support the official and full Divine Liturgy as seeking a restoration of ethnicity. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Melkite parish I worship at is full of people of all different ethnicites, has as its staple a fairly full Divine Liturgy and other Divine Services, and is growing faster than any parish in the Ruthenian Church. [On a personal note, most who know me know that I am anything but a super-ethnic!] The rubrics and texts of the Divine Liturgy and other Divine Services are almost totally common across the Byzantine Churches, with the differences between recensions being fairly minor. It is the RDL that is ethnic. It establishes specific rubrics for one particular Church that differentiates it from other Byzantine Churches. It also promulgates ethnic Rusyn music and forbids non-Rusyn music from being used at the Divine Liturgy (see the front of the music Pew Book for the exact wording of the directive).

There is a way forward for the Ruthenian Church and it is easy to see, and we know from experience that it works. We have real examples of it working, and generating enthusiasm of the people. I continue to pray that the Council of Hierarchs rescinds the Revised Divine Liturgy and restores the official Ruthenian Divine Liturgy, hopefully according to the principles and steps offered in this post.

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Father Deacon Paul points out correctly that cantors are nearly as critical to the survival and growth of a Byzantine Church as are the clergy. He also notes that the majority of priests are celebrating the RDL. I suggest that he consider that there is the difference between the priests being under obedience and the cantors being volunteers. One priest I know told me that he was reminded by his bishop that retirement income is a gift from the bishop and not a right, and that those who are not obedient to the bishop will find themselves without retirement income. I will also suggest that many cantors are indeed qualified enough to realize that the Thompson settings are very problematic. Some do not want to be forced participants in hurting people (by forcing them to re-learn something they knew by heart that was perfectly good). On the larger front, there are numerous cantors who saw no reason for a mandated change in music. They have often spent decades memorizing the music they have come to know and love. No one asked them if they wanted a change. No one consulted them about the content of the change. They were simply handed new books and any questions they had were met with accusations of disobedience or musical stupidity on their part. Again, the only way to successfully accomplish change is to enlist the enthusiastic support of the people. Mandates don�t work.

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I spoke with someone who was in attendance there. He mentioned that there were a number of former Ruthenians there who are now part of the UGCC (enough so that someone chuckled that it was like a mini-reunion). Ironically, as ethnic as the Ukrainian Church is it is still far more welcoming to non-cradle, non-ethnics then is the Ruthenian Church. It seems that the biggest sin in the Ruthenian Catholic Church is wanting the Ruthenian Liturgy, whole and correct!

If everything was taken, 1.5 TO 2 hours. Most of our parishes are used to about an hour.