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can we call our Catholic authorities (John Paul II, and others) "bad" for continuing a living dialogue with Anglicanism?

You and I can hold the truth, namely, that they can and do make mistakes in policy. The only purpose of �dialogue� with Protestants, as Dan can tell you, is to catechize. Anything suggesting corporate reunion with a Protestant group, even one that claims apostolic succession, is a waste of time.

Serge

<A HREF="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</A>

Dear Serge,

While I certainly appreciate your Orthodox stance on the matter, we Catholics (and Uniates!) do not only dialogue so as to catechize.

There is also the matter of having to live side by side in society and share a common witness to Christ.

Not everyone sees Orthodoxy or Catholicism as the "True Faith" as readily as we. That doesn't mean we cannot share Christian values with them or learn from them.

The greater understanding we have of one another, the more we will learn to appreciate our faith traditions, and the more Christ will be among us.

And the more Christ will be among us, the greater chances for true unity will there be.

Perhaps now I understand the vituperance of some our Orthodox posters here (not you!!).

But I think the Moscow Patriarchate itself has shown a great Christian example in terms of ecumenism.

It has celebrated Christian festivals together with other Churches and faith communities and participates in ecumenical dialogue without trying to "convert" anyone.

The Armenian Church even had a special Armenian memoral carved into the side of the Preobrzhensky Cathedral for the Glorificaton of the New Martyrs last August.

Alex

Alex,

Surely, when working with our "separated brethren" we are to be respectful. Surely, we have much in common. We should be respectful of all groups who are sincerely seeking truth.

However, I do not consider treating others with respect or acting jointly to improve society an act of union with them.

It is not honest on our part to pretend that we can be in communion with persons who deny great sections of the faith. Hence, I lean toward Serge on this one.

I would suggest that those who believe that Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, etc. stand on an equal footing with Catholicism and Orthodoxy need better catechesis.

Dan Lauffer

[This message has been edited by CD Lauffer (edited 07-24-2001).]

Our Holy Father calls the dialogue with Protestants "an exchange of gifts", which seems to be a fairly firm assertion that both parties have gifts to exchange.

Obviously, Serge and other Orthodox Christians can view much of what the Catholic Church does a waste of time. While I disagree with Dan in this particular example, I would affirm his right as a lay (and I presume contributing) Catholic to call on the Holy Father to stop spending the Church's resources on what Dan considers a waste of time.

However, for me, I view this exchange of gifts as a wonderful thing and I concur with the Holy Father's analysis that it is in fact an exchange of gifts.

K.

Dear Dan,

I agreed that "communicatio in sacris" is a no-no.

I never suggested that Protestantism is on an equal footing with Catholicism or Orthodoxy.

If the Holy Father defines the Church's participation in the WCC, and he has, then those are the limits and boundaries I accept for any such dialogue, exchange and outreach.

Attending the WCC does not mean we cannot criticize them or disagree with them or assert Apostolic truth to them.

And dialogue with Anglicans, Lutherans and Methodists does not preclude me learning from them, gaining insight into my own faith through their faith experiences, or admiring their holy ones throughout their history.

The Anglicans, Lutherans and Methodists I know all say the Rosary, use their Divine Offices, participate in social outreach programs to help the poor and drug addicts in society.

I am proud to be associated with them. I am a better Christian for having them as my friends.

If by their fruits we shall know them, then their fruits in Christ are plentiful and abundant indeed!

Alex

Thank you Alex, you are a true ecumenist!

Kurt

Alex,

Amen to your statement. I'm still trying to live up to the example of "orthopraxis" (sp) displayed by my Protestant mother and +father and my +paternal grandparents, and my Latin Catholic +maternal grandparents, one of whom was raised in the "Dunkard" Brethren Church.

This Sunday, the Gospel reading for the Byzantine Church is the multiplication of the loaves and fishes. St. John Chrysostom taught that "feeding the hungry is a far greater work even than raising the dead." Thus, one of the greatest miracles our Lord ever performed was because of the helping hands of someone who was considered to be among the world's least significant--a child.

Preach the Gospel... but if you really have to, use words.

Rick
(a former Protestant)

Dear Rick,

Amen and Amen!

May God grant me the Grace to respond in the fullness of love to those whom He sends to me in want and need.

I fail in this regard, but I ask God to make up what I lack so that He could work through me.

Holy John Wesley, pray unto God for us!

Alex

Alex,

Holy John Wesley, pray unto God for us!

Having studied Wesley most of my life I say "Amen"!

I still wonder if he is suprised over how many Popes he is now rubbing shoulders with.

Dan Lauffer

�We know where the Church is; we cannot say where it is not.� � a favorite Orthodox saying

No doubt there are born Protestants (like John Wesley, a man you can really admire) who are holy people. Church teaching is that such are implicitly in the catholic Church. Further, I agree that aspects of the faith may ironically at times be more manifest among those outside the visible Church � things like knowledge of the Bible among the laity, dynamic small-o orthodox preaching (I�ve heard Jerry Falwell defend the hypostatic union) or charitable work. Perhaps this is the �exchange of gifts� to which the Pope refers. Not a problem. However, that doesn�t make Methodism, for example, a catholic, apostolic, orthodox Church with which corporate reunion is possible. (As Dan will tell you.)

Obviously, Serge and other Orthodox Christians can view much of what the Catholic Church does a waste of time. While I disagree with Dan in this particular example, I would affirm his right as a lay (and I presume contributing) Catholic to call on the Holy Father to stop spending the Church's resources on what Dan considers a waste of time.

Kurt, you seem to enjoy baiting me. Most unchristian. I resent your lame attempt on this thread to paint me as a Catholic-basher. Nowhere here have I put down Catholicism and my track record on this forum, plus the friendship of Byzantine Catholics I�ve met here, speaks for itself.

If I entered Catholic communion today, I wouldn�t change a word of what I�ve written.

Serge

<A HREF="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</A>

Dear Dan,

I once read a book on Wesley written by a Catholic who let it be known that he himself privately invoked Wesley.

In the book "A Rumour of Bishops" that was pointed out to me by Fr. Serge Keleher, there is a note that John Wesley himself was at one time interested in receiving ordination from the Greek Orthodox Church.

He prayed one-three hours morning and evening, prayed during the Apostolical Hours of nine, twelve and three o'clock, fasted Wednesday and Friday each week until three in the afternoon and helped thousands of impoverished people, all the while being an itinerant preacher.

In addition to the Scriptures, he also read the Eastern Fathers widely.

My mother lives near a Methodist Church named in honour of Francis Asbury. Whenever I go by, I say a prayer of thanksgiving to God for this holy man and ask him to pray for me and mine.

God bless,

Alex

Dear Friends,

As one who is sensitive about his religious faith to a fault (!), I can readily attest that Serge is no Catholic-basher.

As a matter of fact, I had always thought Serge was a Russian Catholic.

I still have trouble believing he is not

Alex

Serge,

No doubt there are born Protestants (like John Wesley, a man you can really admire) who are holy people. Church teaching is that such are implicitly in the catholic Church. Further, I agree that aspects of the faith may ironically at times be more manifest among those outside the visible Church � things like knowledge of the Bible among the laity, dynamic small-o orthodox preaching (I�ve heard Jerry Falwell defend the hypostatic union) or charitable work. Perhaps this is the �exchange of gifts� to which the Pope refers. Not a problem. However, that doesn�t make Methodism, for example, a catholic, apostolic, orthodox Church with which corporate reunion is possible. (As Dan will tell you.)

I agree with what you have written. While Wesley was quite Orthodox (with a few serious exceptions) his late twentienth century "followers (?)" to a great extent are not. Officially, we do not affirm the Creeds. We read "historic professions of faith" but consider them to be advisory. Hence, today, American Methodism is infilitrated with Bishops who deny the trinity openly and without fear of correction. Methodists have bishops who deny the divinity of Christ and many laity who virtually deny either His divinity or his humanity (and a majority who don't care one way or the other). Nearly half of the United Methodist Bishops have affirmed that they see nothing wrong with same sex marriages and ordination for gays and lesbians. While most don't dare do it right now many have made their personal position known.

Private conscience is the only authority universally held today in Methodism.

This is not the kind of Church that any serious Christian would say is apostolic or catholic.

They continue to work in the social area, but even there, the talk is often far stronger than the action.

There are pockets of very devout and knowledgeable Methodists. Sadly, the only kind of union possible would be for some to break away and unite with the Catholics or the Orthodox.

Dan Lauffer

Dear Dan,

Yes, but there is no reason why the Methodist tradition or aspects of it cannot be co-opted by the church once sufficient numbers join it.

The same thing happened with the "Evangelical Orthodox" who joined the Antiochian Church.

Following the Byzantine Rite, they were enabled to "inject" a number of evangelical elements into it, as a friend of mine who belongs to that group has described to me.

Alex

Serge, snookums,

You suggest a certain practice currently being engaged in by the highest authorities of Catholic Church is a waste of time. I don't know why you think my noting that is an accusation of Catholic bashing. You are free to make your observations as to how the Catholic Church could more effectively use its time with no offense from this Catholic, though also no guarantee that your advise will be taken.

K.