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What "chain" are you talking about? The Union of Brest makes no mention of a "chain". The comments cause me to stand again by my observation that often those who come from the Latin Church want to project a sort of implicit subordination on our churches to Rome (the image of "chain" certainly brings images of slavery and subservience) which may not even be a conscious thing, but one of their background and upbringing.

I do not think this is the end or the intent of particularity.

It is wonderful that Ukraine is an Orthodox country, including those Orthodox in communion with Rome. Yes, if one looks at the Latin population, it is indeed a minority. With 5 million worldwide, with a presence on most continents, the UGCC has done pretty well starting with a few Eparchies of the Union.

I think it's important to distinguish between Catholic patriarchs and Orthodox patriarchs. They don't appear to have the same independence or authority. This has nothing to do with a "Latin background." I strongly suspect that any Catholic patriarch, metropolitan, or major archbishop, given a direct papal order, will follow it. I don't know of any Catholic patriarch who has or claims supreme authority within his church. I wish the UGCC many successes and thank God for their achievements. No one can, or should, try to take any of that away from them. I realize that none of the Eastern Catholic churches could be considered huge. However, it has come as a surprise to me that the UGCC is a minority in Ukraine. I had really thought they were a much larger church than that.

The reason why there appear to be, and most likely are moe UGCC members in here in the Diaspora is due to political geography. Over the past 300 years, due to Czarist policies, the UGCC was almost exclusively concentrated in the most 'Western parts' of what is now the modern Ukrainian Republic (ex: Halychyna / Galicia, Zakarpattia, Volyn, etc..). During the last 100 years this same territory 'belonged' to various countries such as Poland, Slovakia, and Hungary from which people could more easily emigrate. The areas of Ukraine where there are large numbers of Ukrainian Orthodox were mostly under Russian domination (both Czarist and Communist) and from which it was not easy to emigrate to the West. Hence why today there appears to be many more UGCC members than Orthodox around the world. The reality it is the other way around.

It should also be pointed out, that 'patriotic' UGCC members do not consider themselves to be 'Roman Catholic' but rather 'Orthodox in Communion with Rome' and they use the Austro-Hungarian Imperial term for this, which is 'Greek Catholic'. Many 'patriotic' Ukrainian Orthodox also view the UGCC as 'Orthodox in Communion with Rome' versus 'Ukrainian Autocephalic Orthodox', or 'Ukrainian Orthodox with a Kyivan Patriarchate' (non-aligned).

Should the above mentioned churches unite into one entity, it has been argued that it would be the largest Orthodox Church in the world in terms of active membership.

I.F.

Thanks for some very good information.

I doubt that Patriarch Lubomyr would sign his name in that way - it's not quite polite to do so. I've never heard of him trying to tell hierarchs, priests, or deacons not to commemorate him with the patriarchal title.

Fr. Serge

Dear byzanTN,
I find this thread very confusing in its discussion about the genesis of a Ukrainian Catholic patriarchate, but them I am Ukrainian Orthodox (in Canada).

It is true that Ukraine itself is considered an Orthodox country, while in North America the Ukrainian Catholics are in the majority because of strong emigration patterns from Halychyna and Zakarpatia.

My family has been in Canada for multiple generations, but we still maintain our Ukrainian heritage and participation in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada under the EP.

This statement has been made:
Many 'patriotic' Ukrainian Orthodox also view the UGCC as 'Orthodox in Communion with Rome' versus 'Ukrainian Autocephalic Orthodox', or 'Ukrainian Orthodox with a Kyivan Patriarchate' (non-aligned).

I myself do not see Ukrainian Catholics as �Orthodox in communion with Rome�, I see them as Ukrainian Catholics. My church does not allow Ukrainian Catholics to receive the Holy Eucharist in our church precisely because they are not Orthodox. I do not see what this has to do with being a patriotic Ukrainian at all because to me and to my church it is a church and faith issue.

I wish the Ukrainian Catholics well, but I am Orthodox and am part of the world-wide Orthodox communion based on unity in the Orthodox faith.

Dear byzanTN,

I found a good example of how many 'patriotic' Ukrainian Orthodox view themselves. If you scroll down this link from Ukraine, you will notice at the bottom of the page that the Ukrainian Autocepholous Orthodox Church (UAOC) in Eastern Ukraine lists several 'fraternal' Orthodox Churches, including: the Orthodox Church of Canada and the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.

http://www.church.poltava.ua/7e.html

There are of course many 'patriotic' Ukrainians within both the Ukrainian Greek Catholic (UGCC) and Ukrainian Orthodox Churches of Canada who have similar fraternal views. There are others who have lost touch with the land of their forefathers. Many of these moved on to the Roman Catholic Church and Billy Graham Churches because they have a more North American 'feel' to them.

I.F.

I am Ukrainian Orthodox and I do not know what you mean at all. As an Orthodox Christian I can treat Ukrainian Catholics as fellow Christians but it does not at all mean that I beleive that they can take communion in my church, which they can't. Ukrainian Catholics are not Orthodox and cannot take communion in an Orthodox Church.
Nor do I as a Ukrainian Orthodox believer want any union of churches based on ethnicity as the common denominator. The Orthodox Church as a whole can only unite with the catholic Church as a whole (including Ukrainian Catholics) when there is unity of faith. Only then will there be inter-communion.
This is what the Orthodox hold and to claim otherwise is just not being honest. How can we have any discussion without honesty?

I greatly appreciate the information about the religious make-up of Ukraine. From what I have seen on TV, Ukraine is a modern country fully in the 21st century. The few Ukrainians I have met here tend to be university students or work at the nearby national lab. But there aren't many of them.

I agree with Orest and Halia12. This effort for unity based on ethnicity, irregardless of the differences in faith that exist between the Orthodox and Catholic communions is misguided at best. Ukrainian Greek Catholics, however much their services resemble Orthodox services, are still Catholic in doctrine. Before there can be any unity based on external similarities in rite or language or ethnicity, there would need to be internal unity in Faith.

Grace and peace,
John

Amen. Amen. Amen. We are better off agreeing to disagree, than to pretend a reality exists which does not. We can still be charitable to each other. Christian unity will come about in God's good time, not ours. The Holy Spirit will see that it occurs when the "fullness of time" has come about.

Dn. Robert

quoted from Orest.

I agree. I am Byzantine Catholic, I am not Orthodox. There are many similarities in belief and liturgy, but as far as church structure and governance, we are definitely not the same. I agree we should respect each other's differences, agree when we can, and agree to disagree when we can't agree. That can all be done with Christian charity. But unity, if and when it comes, has to be based on beliefs not ethnicity.

Tell it to the Orthodox. I am aware of Greek Archdiocese parishes which insist that Latins must be rebaptized - but cheerfully give Communion to Latins who happen to be ethnic Greeks. Go figure.

Fr. Serge

Father, it's a crazy world out there.

I did notice that the second picture on the the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church web site had very senior members of this church. This is the caption:

"Summer 1999 A.D., Field of Poltava battle. On foreground: on the left Popular Member of the Ukrainian Parliament(Verkhovna Rada) Mrs. Slava Stetzko, next Father Vitaly Zubak, Archpriest, Chancellor of Kharkiv-Poltava UAOC Eparchy; Father Yury Boyko, Metr. Archpriest from Kyiv; The Most Reverend Father Ihor (Isichenko), Kharkiv & Poltava Archbishop, next - Father Ihor Lytvyn, Poltava Dean." (end caption)

In the mid late 1990's I do distinctly remember Mrs Slava Stetsko (note: seen in the picture and mentioned in the caption) a UGCC member taking communion from the Ukrainian Orthodox Patriarch Filaret himself during a Divine Liturgy in Kyiv. In 1988 I also remember her taking communion in St-Peter's Basilica from Pope John Paul II himself during the Divine Liturgy celebrating the Millennium of Christianity in Ukraine. Fifteen years before that, I was with her when she received communion in a Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Munich, and I know she has taken communion manny times in the UGCC church in this Bavarian capital. All the church hierarch I mentioned recognized her and knew she was a UGCC member yet they did not stop her from receiving communion. They were also strong proponents of Petro Mohyla's idea of a Kyivan Ruthenian Orthodox Church. Sadly, she has since passed away. I pray that God welcomes her and her fraternal Orthodox church leaders, and Pope John Paul II to heaven one day.

I.F.