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There have been cases in Ukraine, the US, and Canada that I personally am aware of the UO priest giving communion to known UGCC members. In the UGCC, we regularly have Ukrainian Orthodox approach for communion in areas where they have no Church and do not refuse them.

At least once a year I am invited (and always accept if possible) to assist UOC clergy at Molebens or Panakhydas and we likewise reciprocate. Several years at Provody I have been asked to accompany to graves of the Orthodox faithful and gladly did so. The relations are quite good in many places. Archbishop Vsevelod of blessed memory was especially instrumental in fostering those good relations with our UGCC Eparchy.

While we are not yet in complete communion, we do often work together.

By sighting this one example, I am not sure what it is you hope to prove. Certainly not that Ukrainian Catholics may commune in Orthodox Churches because that is not true. There is no intercommunion. I can speak for my church, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada, that only Orthodox Christians may receive communion. Our church leaders have repeatedly issued statements to this effect because of misinformation spread by those who do not belong to our church.



The Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada does not allow Ukrainian Catholics to receive communion in our churches. We have all been taught not to receive communion in Catholic or any other non-Orthodox churches and that to do so is to effectively cut yourself off from the sacraments of the Orthodox Church.
This is from our church web page:



In the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada, we are required to go to confession before communion; thus, the priests knows all those who come forward for communion. See this item from our church web page:


I trust I have made this clear.

But she was not just "one example". She was a 'high profile' person who belonged to the UGCC and was also a member of the current Ukrainian Republic's Parliament (the oldest one on top of that). Patriarch Mystyslav of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church USA then of Ukraine was a dear friend of hers as was UGCC Patriarch Joseph. She was president Yuschenko's mentor (among many). She was highly respected by both Ukrainian Orthodox and Greek Catholics around the world and she did intercommune between both churches by receiving communion in both. She was not "one example" but rather a guiding light of where our churches are going.

As for the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada, I have an aunt and and an uncle (may he rest in peace) who were baptized in it, and other UGCC family members (grandparents, and parents) who were not but who did received communion in it. None were turned away because they were UGCC. I know of a UOCC priest who was consecrated in a UGCC chapel in Canada, and all the UGCC faithful who happened to be there were allowed to receive communion. I could go on, but the short of it is..... there are in fact some UOCC priests who believe the UGCC is an Orthodox Church from which it is artificially separated. Please no more church rules and bylaws postings. I have a drawer full of them.

I.F.

Obviously you do not want to be confused with the facts and the facts are that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada will not give communion to Ukrainian Catholics.



These are the rules and facts you choose to ignore. By doing so you are creating a roadblock to ecemical discussion.
We have to deal with things they way they are and not the way we would like them to be.

Thank you Orest for making the point of Orthodox communion crystal clear.

If anyone has any doubts, please reread his posts. They are absolutely correct.

C. I. X.

Orthodoxy, what specifically makes anyone Orthodox? Exclusivity? I remember when the Ukrainian Orthodox (dead hands) were questionable, even in Canada. It is easier to hide behind wavering Orthodox banners or Catholic flags then to serve our common brothers and sisters together as Christians. The Catholic movement Radical Orthodox is getting that reputation.

The more things change the more they remain the same. The manipulation of history has cause us to relive it in order to learn what we should have learned so many times before. Let us not blame the ethnicity which brings us together in our domestic (home / family) church which is our grass rooted ministry. In John 17:11 Christ prayed we would be one, not clones.

Yes the East commune in personal fellowships as in the Soviet Gulags. Mark 9:39 Christ warned not to forbid those serving in His name. Singing generic platitudes is pontificating. Defend with Scripture and our Tradition. Stop being a �Uniateski� (Claiming Eastern authenticity while understanding with a Western perspective).

I like the stated discipline of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada regarding reception of the Holy Eucharist (although I too have heard of instances of it being violated by certain priests). I think that the Catholic Church should adopt a similar discipline (including the restoration of a real fast). I think that the present Catholic discipline has become way too loose since Vatican II. One positive side effect of requiring confession before every Communion: the whole problem with pro-death politicians approaching for Communion would pretty much go away-pronto! Most of them are not big on going to confession, and even if they did, the priest would have the opportunity to confront them on their po-death voting habits!

Dn. Robert

Do tell. But there are other facts to take into account, such as these:

a) the present Ukrainian Orthodox Bishop of England (and other places), who belongs to the Ecumenical Patriarchate, was ordained to the episcopate in - surprise! - the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Cathedral in London.

b) I myself was offered Holy Communion by the now-deceased Ukrainian Orthodox Bishop of Toronto (I declined) in the course of a quite public Pontifical Liturgy in one of his parish churches. Then, while the bishop was holding the Cross to be kissed, and greeting the individual parishioners (who seemed to be unaware that one is expected to kiss the Bishop's hand), his own clergy all disappeared, with the result that I was the only person still there who was able to unvest the Bishop (for those who don't know it, it is well-nigh impossible for a Bishop to unvest himself without assistance).

Very impressive.

I was given a fascinating Antimension, consecrated with the relics of Saint George the Great Martyr, by the Ukrainian Orthodox Bishop who consecrated it.

Shall I continue?

Fr. Serge

Well I'm certainly glad to hear that some member of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada are warming up to the idea of intercommunion.

May I also correct an error (and boy I do make lots of them late at night). The Ukrainian Orthodox of Canada Church priest I mentioned earlier was in fact ordained (not consecrated as stated) in a UGCC chapel by an Ukrainian Orthodox of Canada Bishop. However, earlier the UGCC chapel was consecrated by an UGCC priest with many UGCC and UOCC present. Intercommunion at both events was common.

I'm glad to hear from Father Serge that the Ukrainian Orthodox Bishop for the UK was able to use the UGCC Cathedral for the purpose of ordaining their bishop. After all, during the 80's (and possibly part of the 90's) most Ukrainian Greek Catholics in the United Kingdom were served by Ukrainian Orthodox priests who were more than happy to offer communion to their fraternal Christians. I myself received on 3 or 4 occassions communion from a Ukrainian Orthodox priest in the United Kingdom at at the Ukrainian Youth Association's summer camp in the summer 1983. Before my eyes, a Ukrainian Orthodox priest was administering communion to about 200 teenagers. There were even about 6 or seven younger campers who had their First Communion administered by a Ukrainian Orthodox priest. None of us were asked to convert from UGCC to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, but they sure did teach us to honor our Orthodox traditions - and by thew way they considered the UGCC to be a fraternal Orthodox Church (in communion with Rome). It's nice to hear that the UGCC are now returning the favor by providing the Ukrainian Orthodox in the United Kingdom with a large Cathedral in which their member can feel at home. I would bet my milk allowance that there were plenty of UGCC at the ordination.

I.F.

Father Serge,

Why would a Ukrainian Orthodox bishop give a Catholic priest an Orthodox antimension? Since when is an antimension a souvenir? What are you doing with it? Is it framed on a wall in your residence? I hope not!

Please explain further. You're helping to muddy the waters of the clear rules of Orthodox communion, except in the case of what seems to be the Ukrainian free for all.

"Why would an Orthodox Bishop give a Catholic priest an Orthodox antimension?" That question would have to be addressed to the Orthodox Bishop in question - whom I have deliberately not named because I have no wish to set the pursuivants on him.

"Since when is an antimension a souvenir?" I should think that an antimension is always a souvenir, reminding the Priest that he does not offer the Divine Liturgy on his own authority and reminding him of the hierarch who consecrated the Antimension and the hierarch who gave him the Antimension (the two hierarchs are often, but not always, one and the same). One might add that the art work usually found on antimensia since the 17th century serve to remind the Priest of the Passion and Death of Our Lord. I trust that this aspect of the antimension does not disturb you unduly.

What am I doing with that particular antimension? What, may I ask, does one expect a priest to do with an antimension? There are some items which really only have one proper use.

Is it framed and hanging on a wall in my residence? No. But if it will make you feel any worse, I could mention several museums (museae?) which have quite a number of antimensia framed and on display - this includes the museum at the Russian Orthodox seminary in Odessa, which displays both antimensia consecrated by Orthodox hierarchs and antimensia consecrated by Greek-Catholic hierarchs. Perhaps you might wish to go there and rend your garments?

The Ukrainian free-for-all? Are you under the impression that such phenomena can only be found in Ukrainian circles? Dear, dear. I remember an occasion when Patriarch Maximos V, of thrice-blessed memory, was somewhat unexpectedly called upon to baptize and chrismate a child. Having no Chrism with him, the Patriarch asked an Orthodox Bishop in the vicinity for the Chrism, which the good Bishop supplied gladly. And no, I won't tell you who he was either.

I am also well aware of numerous occasions when Patriarch Maximos V (who was not in any sense Ukrainian and certainly did not regard the Church as a free-for-all) welcomed Orthodox priests to serve the Divine Liturgy with him.

You ask me to explain further - gladly. on both sides of the Great Divide, one can find hierarchs, clerics, monastics, and faithful who quite soberly do not agree that the Great Divide goes so deep that we must make matters worse instead of better.

Or as Corrie ten Boom put it, in a quite different context, there is no pit so deep but that Christ is not deeper still!

Fr. Serge

I remember hearing some years ago that Vladyka Andrew Katkoff, M.I.C. (may his memory be eternal!) consecrated antimins using the relics of the Apostle Andrew with chrism he collected, in Rome, from many hierarchs; Roman Catholic, Byzantine and Orthodox. He collected this holy chrism and mixed them all together to use in consecration of antimensia.
Vladyka Andrei was a bit ahead of his time ecumenically!
Silouan, monk

C. I. X.

The Dormition (Wallachian) Orthodox Church of 1591 in Lviv Ukraine possesses the oldest Antimension in the city. It is under glass, framed and hung on the southern wall behind the cantor�s stand. It is revered by both Catholic and Orthodox as an icon reliquary with historic significance.

Amin, amin, i yeshcho raz AMIN!

Alexandr

These figures are outrageously overinflated by the shismatic sects claiming Orthodoxy. The Canonical Orthodox Church in the Ukraine has well over 3 fold the number of communities that the sects have combined.

Alexandr