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C. I. X.

Alexander,

That depends if you are using real-estate or souls.

Let's keep the discussion charitable, gentlemen. It is possible to disagree without being disagreeable and that is the expectation.

Many years,

Neil

C. I. X.

Neil,

When the Great Lent was approaching I had a dilemma. A prominent member of the parish had publicly slandered me. I was afraid on Forgiveness Sunday they would come up to me to ritualistically ask for forgiveness in a show that would rival the Pharisee in the temple, while never privately addressing the problem with me or even realizing the scandal caused for others. My prayers were answered, that Sunday I was flat on my back in the hospital after an operation.

The subject we are skirting around could have become an all out crusade. These members have been charitable, maybe not smooth but not hypocritically patronizing either. Would anyone believe a sitcom style episode of SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE�S �Church Lady�? Does not orthodoxy faith and worship in the Eastern perspective organically develops at grass root levels as this? If you are uncomfortable with these realities of history and current events my apologies, but hiding from them does not a good Christian make. If we don�t know our history we are likely to relive it. Enmity is not the issue here, just a difference between a righteous perspective and a prudent perspective. Just my candid perspective, which may be flawed.

The CIA does not lie (unless it has to do with secret weapons of mass destruction in Iraq ) so there is no reason not to believe the statistics it has published concerning church adherence in Ukraine. The statistics are tabulated by several sources, including American and Ukrainian institutions which use sound modern statistical sampling and analysis to determine these figures. The statistics are not the 'wishful thinking' of any one church.

There is further evidence that the 26% figure attributed to the UOC-MP will be further diminished over 'time'. It appears that more than half of this churches members foresee a time in the near future where they will be part of a canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church. There are a variety of reasons why they have not moved to another branch of Ukrainian Orthodoxy, including mostly practical ones such as a lack of funds to build new UOC-KP or UAOC temples in their areas. They simply believe that as the political climate in Ukraine continues to change, so will the chances that their existing church will move from the MP to KP. In some cases, some UOC-MP members still fear loosing their jobs or not being promoted because they belong to the UOC-KP or UAOC, and for this reason remain in the UOC-MP churches. They too believe that over time the political climate in Ukraine will favor a more Kyivancentric Patriarchy - and when the time comes they will make the patriotic move.

Eastern Ukraine is comming out of a long period of Russian persecution and domination both by despotic Czars and Commissars. Ukrainian schools and Universities have all been teaching a very Ukrainiancentric history for the past 17 years, which means that in 3 years there will be a new generation of young Ukrainians who will be free of their Soviet / Russian 'Menshvartosty' (inferiority) complex which was thrust upon them over the centuries through terror and intimidation. EU and NATO integration for Ukraine will assure sovereignty and self determination.

The Russian Federation on the other hand, continues to promote a Russocentric / Sovietcentric history which places it at the center of Rus Chrisitianity. There are now two nations who are openly claiming to represent Rus Christianity - Ukraine and the Russian Federation. The new 'Unified Kyivan Patriarchy' is seeking to unite Rome with Constantinople, where as the Moscow Patriarchy is seeking to solidify it's position as the 'Third Rome'.

I do distinctly remember the Moscow Patriarch FIRST publicly thanking President Putin of the Russian Federation for having helped unite the Russian Orthodox Church with the ROCOR, THEN he thanked G-d. Since I do not belong to this church I will not comment any further on the sequence of thanks, but it does seem a tad bit hypocrytical on the part of a poster to be 'over Amening' in reference to waiting for G-d to reunify the Ukrainian churches.

The Ukrainians will mend the schism and unite the branches of Ukrainian Orthodoxy with Rome and Constantinople. If not us - then who ? If not today - then when ?

I.F.

"The CIA does not lie"? Such naivete is charming!

Fr. Serge

I forgot to append this news story:

Ukraine�s President: Kyivan Rus Baptism Anniversary Celebration will Help Unify Ukrainian Orthodoxy
04.07.2008, [16:42] // Church-state relations //

Kyiv� At a briefing on 3 July 2008, the deputy head of the Secretariat of the President of Ukraine, Yuriy Bohutsky, stressed that the president is convinced that �The celebration of the 1020th anniversary of the baptism of Kyivan Rus will facilitate the unification processes in Ukrainian Orthodoxy.� The ua.for-ua.com received this information from the presidential press service.
�As early as at the time that Victor Yushchenko was the head of the national Bank and the Prime Minister, he always believed that ways to unite the Ukrainian Orthodoxy should be found,� stressed Bohutsky.

He also stated that the unity of Ukrainian Orthodoxy will become a subject of discussion of Church representatives during the celebratory events in July-August, 2008. �It is a chance to find an understanding,� says Bohutsky.


There is also this related story:


Delegations of All Local Orthodox Churches of World Invited to Ukraine
05.07.2008, [09:39] // Foreign relations //

Kyiv�The deputy head of the Secretariat of the President of Ukraine, Yuriy Bohutsky, reported at a briefing on 3 July 2008 that �17 Church delegations are invited to the celebration of the 1020th anniversary of the baptism of Rus. Nine invitations have already been accepted.� The following hierarchs confirmed their participation in the planned events: Universal Patriarch Bartholomew, Patriarch Theodore II of Alexandria, Patriarch Theophilus III of Jerusalem, Archbishop Chrysostom II of Cyprus, and the Catholicos of the Armenian Apostolic Church.

If I phrase this poorly, I apologize in advance. It is not meant to be hurtful or critical.

There seems to be much criticism from both sides of the divide, against both those on the same and opposite sides, to the effect that folks aren't doing their part to maintain as schism!

I'm not sure whether I should attach a or a :(, or both . . .

hawk

They have, though, been catastrophically wrong on occasion.

Those weapons were error, not mendaciousness.
And then there's the gross miscalculation of Soviet production--they had *no* idea the UFFR was ready to crumble until it happened.
And then there's Sadam's nuclear program, which would be hysterical if it wasn't so serious. They were wrong about that because they had someone in Sadam's office, with all his information. Sadam thought he had a nuclear program--neither he nor the CIA mole knew that the head of the program was embezzling nearly everything . . .

hawk

There is a Ukrainian jurisdiction in the US that openly allow intercommunion with Catholics:

http://www.uaocamerica.org/Intercommunion/

They came from Patriarch Moisey's group, which originated in Metropolitan Michael Champion's group (and Stephan Petrovich), now in communion with the UAOC led by Metropolitan Mefodiy:

http://uaoc.org/

How are these groups regarded within the Ukrianian community?

Dear Mexican,

They certainly do have a following which appears to be much stronger in Ukraine than than in North America. Their core belief is that their church should not be dominated and/or controlled by foreigners, including the Moscow Patrirarch(Muscovites / Russians), Pope (Poles or Italians) or the Ecumenical Patriarch (Greeks).

Bringing this group into the new Kyivan Orthodox Church 'fold' is why autocephaly will be a critical of the new Patriarchy. Many of the UAOC members are ex-UOC-KP, UOC-MP, and even UGCC who gave up on waiting for recognition of a distinctly partriotic Orthodox church for the Ukrainian people and decided to join. There remains in essense a 'UAOC-philism' in all of the other branches of Ukrainian Orthodoxy (UGCC included), and that is why Unitism will not work any more than a Moscow Patriarch who continues a century old policy of Russifying the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.

I.F.