www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology "Uniate" Orthodox relations. An analysis

Makes for an interesting read: http://www.jsri.ro/old/html%20version/index/no_3/delia_dumitrica-articol.htm

Silouan, monk

"As a result, after the euphoria of the first moments of liberty, when the Orthodox Church promised the return of Greek-Catholic properties,15 attempts to solve the restoration problem failed. The Orthodox party had no interest in the dialogue, claiming legal ownership over the respective properties. On the other hand, Uniates lacked any documents for their request, as these were destroyed after 1948. In this vacuum favored by the weak legal system, rumors of "unpatriotic" conduct of the Uniate members (due to their affiliation with the Pope) fed the nationalistic feelings against the
Greek-Catholics. The attacks of the Orthodox Church were on several occasions supported by the government to stir up nationalistic feelings against Hungarians in Transylvania (by suggesting that Romanians can only be Orthodox and Hungarians - Catholics, hence Uniate are serving Hungarian interests)."

http://www.jsri.ro/old/html%20version/index/no_3/delia_dumitrica-articol.htm

This seems to summarize the problem. I'm still reading through the article and it is a very good summary of the problems. Thank you.

CDL

C. I. X.

�The message seems to be that the Russian Orthodox Church will grudgingly accept the Patriarch's presence in St Peter's as long as the new Greek Catholic (and hence "schismatic" and "uniate") Metropolitan of Pre�ov is kept well out of sight!�
as stated by Latin Catholic in # 293357 of PATRIARCH TO PARTICIPATE IN VATICAN MASS. I complained of the use of �Uniate� then with an analogy. I presume my request was dismissed, for here it is blatantly used in the title.

No matter the origin if the term �Uniate� or how it may have been innocent and possibly intended to reflect John 17:11, it does not today. Especially when it is translated from other languages:
http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=59330
where it is meant to be hurtful and give a bias slant by those who make a science of semantic disinformation. I tried to avoided this analogy but its predecessor made not impact, so as it is the closest in sensitivity I fear I must so you can understand; Quoting Wikipedia: �Nigger is a derogatory term used to refer to dark-skinned people, mostly those of Black African ancestry. As an English variant of negro, it was once in common usage, but in recent times, in most contexts, it is considered a racial slur.[1] However, modern variants such as nigga are used as a synonym for "person" in a controversial effort to reclaim the word for general use��

My apologies to any scandalized sensitivities, but our sensitivities are no less travail nor is this �off-topic� here blatantly used in the title. It is bias and needs to be avoided.

I think one can find offense nearly anywhere, if one is sensitive to it or looking for it. I would prefer to rise above all that, if possible. I am a Byzantine in union with the Bishop of Rome, and I am rather happy about that. If someone calls me a "uniate" I don't mind in the slightest. If anyone in any other church has problems with that, then it's their cross to bear.

C. I. X.

The issue is not how you take it, it is how the general public may perceive it. For decades (centuries) �Orthodox� (civil PR agents) "north of the border" have used it together with "Schismatic", "Un-canonical" etc. to make it a dirty term, by association. They are experts in semantic manipulation so do not think your ignoring it or using it will make this go away. When they use it with charity so can Catholics, but you cannot force charity. Reread anything using "Uniate" as a slur and you will see where the danger lies. Perception is everything. Most casual readers are as enlightened as you are byzanTN. Use Greaco Catholic instead and you should not be misunderstood.

Sorry I meant to wright "Most casual readers are NOT as enlightened as you are byzanTN.

I'm sorry, I didn't know I had anything to do with it (JK)!

C. I. X.

Sorry, I was referring to a people Muscovite, not a person.

Interesting that you would take ofense at the term "uniate", and then turn around and hurl the term "Muscovite".

Alexandr

C. I. X.

ALEXANDER,

NO OFFENSE OF THE WORD, JUST WHEN IT IS USED�

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Catholic_Churches

"The term "Uniate"
The term Uniat or Uniate is applied to those Eastern Catholic churches who were previously Eastern Orthodox churches, and to their members, primarily by Eastern Orthodox. The term is now considered to have a negative, even derogatory, connotation,[16] though it was also historically used, even if less frequently, by Latin and Eastern Catholics, especially prior to the Second Vatican Council.[17] Official Catholic documents no longer use the term, due to its perceived negative overtones.[18] According to Eastern Orthodox Professor John Erickson of St Vladimir's Theological Seminary, "The term 'uniate' itself, once used with pride in the Roman communion, had long since come to be considered as pejorative. 'Eastern Rite Catholic' also was no longer in vogue because it might suggest that the Catholics in question differed from Latins only in the externals of worship. The Second Vatican Council affirmed rather that Eastern Catholics constituted churches, whose vocation was to provide a bridge to the separated churches of the East�"[19]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscovy

"Assessment
The development of the Russian state can be traced from Kievan Rus' through Vladimir-Suzdal and Moscow Duchy to Tsardom of Russia, and then, the Russian Empire. Moscow Duchy drew people and wealth to the northeastern part of Kievan Rus'; established trade links to the Baltic Sea, the White Sea, and the Caspian Sea and to Siberia; and created a highly centralized and autocratic political system. Moscow political traditions, therefore, exerted a powerful influence on Russian society."

MAYBE INSTEAD OF �MUSCOVITE� I SHOULD HAVE USED �SLAVOPHILE�.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavophile

"Post Serfdom
After the serfdom was abolished in Russia and the end of uprising in Poland, Slavophilism began to degenerate and turned into narrow-minded Russian aggressive nationalism. New Slavophile thinkers appeared in 1870s and 1880s represented by scholars like N. Danilevsky and K. Leontiev. Danilevsky promoted autocracy and Doctor imperialistic expansion as part of Russian national interest. Leontiev believed in a police state ideology aimed at preventing European influences to reach Russia.[17]"

NOW WE ARE GETTING OFF THE SUBJECT, WHICH IS A MORE COMMON ART FORM THEN SEMANTIC MANIPULATION.

Gentlemen,

The same comment that I made elsewhere tonight, and directed at the same members as best I recollect, applies here as well. Discussion, including debate and disagreement, can be had charitably and that is the expectation.

Many years,

Neil

C. I. X.

Neil,

Who was uncharitable? In the real world one has to be realistic.
Where were we not charitable?

This topic has little to do with Eastern Christian faith and worship, and is being closed.