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Will those who know more about this than I do (probably quite a few people) see if they can enlighten me? I vastly prefer to use red wine for the Eucharist - for several years I've been serving with Mavrodaphne of Patras, which seems to suit me. I was given a bottle of "Nama" in Athens - according to the label it comes from the Holy Monastery of the Prophet Elias on Mount Athos and is clearly labelled "Oinos Agios". It tastes far too strong and I'm wondering if it has not been fortified. Any liturgical oenologists out there in cyberspace?

Fr. Serge

Nama is not fortified and can indeed be used. It may seem sweeter and stronger than Mavrodaphne, but it is not fortified and is used quite often for parochial altar wine in Greece.

Dear Father,

I am not sure about Byzantine norms, but in the Latin Church, "generous" wines are preferred, because their slightly higher alcohol content prevents spoilage for longer periods of time.

The only other restriction I recall is that the wine needs to be from the fruit of the vine (that is, grape wine) and not adulterated with artificial preservatives.

Shalom,
Memo

Father Serge:

Christ is Risen!! Indeed He is Risen!!
Father bless!!

I know so little about wine that what I don't know would fill a library. Is this very strong wine meant to be diluted at the Divine Liturgy? The Orthodox priests I've seen have put almost as much hot water into the Chalice as the original wine placed there at the Office of Preparation.

BOB

I personally see this as a problem. I've actually, at times, received Holy Communion from a Chalice into which so much hot water was poured by the Deacon that it almost burned my mouth. The contents of the Chalice should be warm, not burning hot.

On the same topic, I read somewhere on the internet once a diatribe by a Catholic man who claimed that the Orthodox put so much water into their Chalices that it actually invalidated their Eucharist! No one nominated him for the 'Ecumenist of the Year' Award.

I personally would keep it to about one quarter / three quarters ratio. After all, some (cold) water has been added to the Chalice already at the Prokomedia. I usually onle add a very small amount of water during the Proskomedia because Zeon will be added later.

Fr David Straut

Father David:

Christ is Risen!! Indeed He is Risen!!

I didn't mean that the contents of the Chalice were that hot. The practice I witnessed was that a thermos of hot water was opened at some early point in the Divine Liturgy and the top left off so that when the addition was made it was a warm temperature, not hot enough to burn the communicants.

What I was referring to was the idea that this wine that Father Serge mentions may have been strong so that it could be diluted. That was my theory and you know about theories: theories are like sweat socks; everyone has at least two and most of them stink.

BOB

I never heard that one before!

Fr David

Father David:

I heard something akin to this originally, but cleaned it up.

BOB

My comment about the wine seeming far too strong referred to:

a) the almost cloying sweetness, and
b) the probable alcohol content - the taste made me suspect that this is a fortified wine, which may not be used for the Divine Liturgy. However, since those who know more than I do assure me that it's all right, who am I to argue? I'm just using far less in the chalice.

Fr. Serge

I should clarify by "not fortified" I am referring to no addition of distilled alcohol that is not of the grape.

In modern bulk winemaking there is no process that does not include additives to start, speed up, slow down, or stop fermentation, fix or change sugar contents, etc.

Even Mavrodaphne (my favorite altar wine) is strictly speaking "fortified"; however what is added is a concentrate solely from previous vintages, and not a distilled alcohol. In that case it is still of the grape, and certainly no one has questioned its use liturgically. One may see a distinction of "lightly fortified" in the description of some sweeter wines such as Mavrodaphne.

For those in the Midwest USA "Velvet Red" by St. James is also quite nice; an Orthodox priest friend suggested this to me when he was unable to get Mavrodaphne.

I'm happily back to Mavrodaphne - it's not for sale in Ireland but I can have friends bring it to me from England.

As to the water, like many priests I put in little more than a drop or so at the Prothesis, and significantly more Zeon just before Holy Communion. Father Archimandrite Robert Taft has written about the Zeon several times (and doesn't buy the attempt to argue that the Zeon can cause the Lord to take His leave of us!).

Fr. Serge

There are actually two primary bottlers of Mavrodaphne for export in Greece; if a distributor cannot obtain one, the other may be available. These are Achaia Clauss and Boutari. With a few minor differences in taste they are quite similar. The primary difference is price; here in Kansas the Boutari runs about $4-5 more per bottle than the Achaia.

We have a new priest here at the parish (GOA). He spent several years in Greece studying Byzantine Chant, so he knows the ins and outs of the Church of Greece. We recently talked a little bit about sacramental wine. We were using Mavrodaphne, but for the moment he's using Commandaria St. John. He prefers Nama, though, and says it is very common in Greece. For years, no one was able to import it into the US, but now there is someone in North Carolina who is able to do so.

And that's all I can say on Nama.

Dave

Unfortunately here in the Midwest we have inherited the combined impacts of Carrie A. Nation and Prohibition. I wish I could get Nama or Commandaria, but the laws of most states in this area prohibit any direct interstate ordering of wine except through a licensed distributor.

The catch is what the distributors can order from their importers. At least I can get both major varieties of Mavrodaphne...

I am happy to say my wife and I performed side-by-side comparisons of the St. James Velvet Red and the Achaia Mavrodaphne last night after being inspired by this thread to revisit the Velvet Red vintage.

I have to say while it is not Mavrodaphne St. James definitely held its own and has a more blood-like color. And it is $30 a case cheaper. It was the wine of choice with the ROCOR monks of Holy Cross Hermitage when they were in Missouri (don't know what they use now), and supporting a small family winery is certainly not a bad thing.
FDRLB