www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Lemk people fight for survival

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2180956.stm

The Lemk people of the Carpathian mountains in Eastern Europe have managed to restore their identity after 50 years of exile under the communist regime, but now face different problems in the modern world.

Already divided over several borders, they also face the challenge of border restrictions tightening in the future.

Their traditional home nestles mainly between the borders of Ukraine, Poland and Slovakia.

If Poland and Slovakia succeed in joining the European Union, the border lying between them and the large community of Ukrainian Lemkos - also known as Rus or Ruthenians - will become harder to cross, with strict visa regimes and higher security.

With an estimated one and a half million Lemkos worldwide, a fully codified written language could be crucial to retaining the Lemko identity.

Most belong to the Greek Catholic, or Uniate, Church, a branch of the Orthodox Church that broke away and accepted the Catholic Pope as the Church's leader.
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A fun article. Not totally accurate, but nice to see nonetheless. The BBC ain't chopped liver, you know.

In case anyone wants to see other "national media" attention to our situation, here's a few other selections:

http://www.slovakspectator.sk/clanok.asp?vyd=2002029&rub=spect_cult&cl=10055

http://www.faz.com/IN/INtemplates/eFAZ/archive.asp?doc={32D1CD5C-2E15-4C2D-ABF8-A183522386D0}

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0329/p08s01-woeu.html

Dear Friend,

Very interesting.

For me, it is still a shock to consider the Lemko people as not a regional variation on a common Ukrainian background.

And I know Lemkos who are great Ukrainian nationalists.

I'll get used to it, I suppose

Alex

And we Lemky-Rusnaci from Slovakia are a regional variation on a common Slovak background. Or so my Slovak friends keep telling me. So which is it?

Dear Friend,

I consider you as Ukrainian and I think your culture will fare better with us than with the Slovaks

We're a tad more democratic and liberal on this sort of thing . . .

I went to Ukie Saturday school with several of Lemko background and I never could understand them when they spoke with their parents.

But I think it is true that there is no such thing as a 'Ukrainian' but only in terms of the local, regional culture from where one is descended from.

Alex

Alex,

I am not sure that I can stomach your remark about Ukrainians being a "tad more democratic and liberal." I have travelled in both Slovakia and Ukraine and would not call Ukraine more democratic or more liberal. In fact, I think the fact that in Slovakia there is now the possibility for one to call oneself "Rusin" on the census form while that cannot be done in Ukraine speaks volumes.

If you as a Ukrainian look at those who call themselves Rusins and call them Ukrainians (as you have done above) there is justification (ol' sauce for the goose sauce for the gander scene) for the Russians to deny a Ukrainian identity. You are but "little Russian" or Southern Russian to them.

That does not feel good does it? It puts your past and present in question. You have to say to yourself "what did my parents lie to me for?"

How can you do this?

I think this whole issue of "all Rusins are Ukrainians" should be banned from this forum. This FORUM IS A COURTESY OF RUSIN GREEK CATHOLICS not "Ukrainians."

Really pissed-off Bob

Dear Bob,

Sorry, Bob, that you took such umbrage at me expressing my own personal view.

Well, at least you aren't the liberal democrat you say the Ukies aren't either.

Banned? We can't even talk about it? And you say Ukrainians are not considered as LIttle Russians here by others on a regular basis with no real claim to a separate identity and nation? Where have you been?

If you will read my post a bit more carefully, I ONLY referred to the Lemkos who have always been considered as Ukrainians by Ukrainians and by many Lemkos, including members of my own family, Bob, who are Lemko.

Perhaps, if you wanted to take a dispassionate look at this, you might want to see it as one of my Lemko relatives put it, that in Slovakia the Lemkos define themselves separately from the Slovaks because they are NOT Slovaks.

And yet many Lemkos in Ukraine define themselves as Ukrainian, even though they have their own Lemko language and culture. Is it because of repression? There are 96 cultural groups in Ukraine with their own schools and institutions, Bob. They are all flourishing and they all call themselves by what they feel they are.

That Lemkos are not Ukrainians is something that will come as a surprise to many Lemkos and Ukrainian scholars over the pond.

But go ahead and impose your democracy by banning even the discussion of this.

Please God such democracy doesn't come to Lemkivschyna and Ukraine. Heaven knows they've had enough of that kind of democracy since 1918.

Signing off from your precious Rusyn Forum that obviously has no place for democratic discussion,

Alex of Lemko-Ukrainian background,

[ 08-08-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

Alex,

This is very simple. There are lists, discussion boards etcetera that do not allow discussion of some subjects. For instance the 'calendar dispute' is banned on some sites. Is that a problem? It is intended to not add fodder to the fire.

If I overreacted, I apologize.

I, however, maintain, my position that Rusins (to which I was referring, not to Lemkos even though that is what this thread is about :rolleyes: ) should be able to call themselves that without the constant threat of Ukrainian attack.

Democratic discussion as you call it leaves room only for your opinion, which you have every right to voice and I have every right to disagree with. Or, is your form of democracy only your voice being heard?

Someone in another thread suggested that ad hominem attacks not be allowed. I do not recall anyone getting all worked up over that like you are getting over this. Was that decried as an attack on democracy?

Alex! Please! Can't we fight (or discuss this issue) like adults without you just threatening to run off only to come back 5 days later?

Bob

The original post was about Lemkos in Poland. You replied in amazement that you can't get over them not being called Ukrainians, OK. Then Lemko Rusin "said yeah and in Slovakia they call us Slovaks."

Now your reply to that is quoted above. I do not know how many Lemkos live in Slovakia or Ukrain. As far as I am concerned they all live in Poland. I have at least one book about ethnic minorities in Slovakia and it does not mention them that I recall.

To me then, you are proposing that they (Lemkos in Poland) adopt a Ukrainian identity as opposed to Slovak. As far as I could tell this is coming out of the blue. It appears from your post (since I can't read your mind, nor you mind we have to depend on the written word) that you are advocating that Polish (being citizens of that nation) Lemkos adopt a Ukrainian ethnicity.

This is what I am worked up about. Why can't they be what they want to be like you can be what you want to be? Just because some Ukrainian 'big shot' academic or otherwise thinks they (Lemkos) are Ukrainian does not make it so. And if you look at what some of the people think they are then some of the BC churches in the USA are full of Czechs and Russians and Austrians....

Again, the Russians (Muscovites) say the same things about the Ukrainians...

Bob

Bob,

The above was just plain uncalled for, I'm sorry. I really don't think Alex is advocating that all Lemkos are Ukrainian and should consider themselves Ukrainian. The tone I get is that the Lemkos that Alex knows, indeed the Lemkos who are a part of his very family, identify with Ukraine, so many and so much so that to him, Lemkos are Ukrainian. He has just admitted that he has to get used to not thinking so, as well. If anyone should be getting upset about it, it's our friend Lemko Rusyn, who doesn't seem to be doing so.

In Christ,
mikey.

Dear Bob King,

Number One: I never said only My opinion is allowed here. You are the one who disallowed my opinion. Those sites that don't allow discussion of certain topics are not sites that anyone integrity should be visiting. I was on one such site and was asked to choose between it and this one. I should have, in hindsight, quit both.

Number Two: As Mikey said, I only said what was my own view dictated by actual context. I didn't come to a conclusion about Lemkos based on textbooks et alia. There are different views on the Lemko-Rusyn issue. And it is different from the Ukrainian-Russian thing in that those Lemkos who say they are Ukrainians do so in perfect freedom. If they told me they are Lemkos period, I would fight to the freakin' death to defend their RIGHT to say so. I'm just observing and if I can't do that without getting dumped on or told to mind my place since this is a Rusyn site, then you know what you can do with it.

Number Three: If this "Byzantine" site is a Rusyn site, then it should say so clearly. I don't know what you Rusyns in the U.S. have been up to with respect to de-ethnicization and the like. If you're such Rusyn patriots, then why don't you say publicly and unashamedly who the hell you are. "Byzantine" to me and to most means a generic term that covers those who use the Byzantine Church Rite. If it means "Rusyn," then specify at the outset of this site so people like me will get the message in advance not to venture into such a minefield of political correctness.

Number Four: As for stomaching, this issue has been a TOTAL turn-off for me. Perhaps I'm unstable in leaving and coming back. That's only because I get e-mails from people wanting me back. And I'm a sucker for that. But, as of RIGHT NOW, I won't ever be back and, friends, forget the e-mails, I'm done but good.

Alex

Dear Bob King,

Number One: I never said only My opinion is allowed here. You are the one who disallowed my opinion. Those sites that don't allow discussion of certain topics are not sites that anyone integrity should be visiting. I was on one such site and was asked to choose between it and this one. I should have, in hindsight, quit both.

Number Two: As Mikey said, I only said what was my own view dictated by actual context. I didn't come to a conclusion about Lemkos based on textbooks et alia. There are different views on the Lemko-Rusyn issue. And it is different from the Ukrainian-Russian thing in that those Lemkos who say they are Ukrainians do so in perfect freedom. If they told me they are Lemkos period, I would fight to the freakin' death to defend their RIGHT to say so. I'm just observing and if I can't do that without getting dumped on or told to mind my place since this is a Rusyn site, then you know what you can do with it.

Number Three: If this "Byzantine" site is a Rusyn site, then it should say so clearly. I don't know what you Rusyns in the U.S. have been up to with respect to de-ethnicization and the like. If you're such Rusyn patriots, then why don't you say publicly and unashamedly who the hell you are. "Byzantine" to me and to most means a generic term that covers those who use the Byzantine Church Rite. If it means "Rusyn," then specify at the outset of this site so people like me will get the message in advance not to venture into such a minefield of political correctness.

Number Four: As for stomaching, this issue has been a TOTAL turn-off for me. Perhaps I'm unstable in leaving and coming back. That's only because I get e-mails from people wanting me back. And I'm a sucker for that. But, as of RIGHT NOW, I won't ever be back and, friends, forget the e-mails, I'm done but good.

Alex

I'll take a risk here and state that my opinion has always been that Rusyns and Ukrainians are part of the same cultural and linguistic family. It matters not what particular region one originates from, but that the similarities that unite us are far greater than the differences which distinguish each particular sub-group.

The fact that Ukrainian only became a term around the turn of the 20th. century and the varying political circumstances in each region in which people of Rus' lived, contributed to the tendency of some to use the new term "Ukrainian" and others, under various political pressures, to retain or adopt other terms.

If there are really such a separating factors that divide Rusyns from those who today consider themselves Ukrainian, what are they? Can anyone give solid evidence that these are two separate cultures, apart from linguistic dialects and regional traditions?

Where do the similarities lie for today's Rusyns? With the Slovaks? With the Russians? If political sensitivities from times past can be abandoned for a moment, what then is left that divides our Rusyn people from their brothers and sisters in Galicia?

Today's Ukraine is composed of many local traditions which while different, are related and which make up the whole. Is it so terrible for those who maintain the ancient name of Rus' to find solidarity with their related brethren who now identify as Ukrainian? I have yet to be shown where the big difference lies and yes, many scholars, Prof. Magoci in particular, do group the two together, while pointing out regional differences. Can we admit to organic development which favors a Ukrainian identity? Unity in the developing Ukrainian consciousness would not be such an unfortunate event, as long as local variations are respected. No national consciousness develops overnight, especially in an area where self-government and cultural awareness was consistently opposed from dominating forces that really were of other cultures.

If anyone can point out what it is that makes Rusyns and Ukrainians, (who were once referred to collectively as "Ruthenians") two distinct cultures with a completely different language and heritage, I'd be glad to listen to the contributing facts.

Fr. Joe

The Slovaks and Hungarians have provided the two most Rusyn-friendly states in central Europe. How ironic then, that Slovakia's Rusyn community is the most quickly assimilating, and Hungary's was already almost completely assimilated even before 1989. The Lemko Rusyns of Poland, living in diaspora in their own country, are piecing together what little they have left with little help, though thankfully little interference, from their government. Ukrainian state agencies and NGOs offer much financial assistance to the Ukrainian-oriented Rusyn communities in these countries, but the promise of money hasn't won the people over to that side.


Of all central European countries, it's only Ukraine that continues to deny recognition of the Rusyns as a people in their own right. Not surprisingly, this obstinacy has given rise not only to, for many Rusyns in Ukraine, a heightened sense of "differentness", but also for some a more extreme need for a political solution -- autonomy, or for a small group of nationalists, redrawing of borders and removing Podkarpatska Rus' from Ukraine. These political aims are nowhere being articulated in Poland or Slovakia. So if Ukrainians want "the Rusyn problem" to go away, their wisest course of action would be to back off and let time and assimilation take their course. Just as we're fond of saying that Archbishop Ireland was the true father of the Orthodox Church in America, so too are Ukrainian nationalists the true founders of the modern Rusyn nation.

Only one thing struck me about the BBC article:

Mark Twain was really a Lemko!

(If you don't believe me, look at the last photo in the article.)



-Dave

I don't disagree with the findings that Lemko Rusyn mentions here. More than likely, they all come into play. Perhaps one reason for resisting the recognition of Rusyns as a distinct ethnic group in today's Ukraine is that Ukrainians consider them to be part of their own. We have to remember that the Ukrainian identity developed only in the past 100 years it was not always easy for Rusyns in Transcarpathia to participate in this.

I don't have all the answers, admittedly, but I have come across many modern Ukrainians who consider "Carpatho-Rusyns" (or Carpatho-Ukrainians, as used since the Voloshyn regime) as a legitimate sub-division among the collective Ukrainian people. Could not the "Carpatho" designation serve to distinguish what is unique about our people apart from their Galician counterparts, in today's terminology and situation?

I think that for many Rusyns, pre-formed ideas from the past, that Ukrainian and Rusyn are mutually exclusive, would deter the acceptance of such an concept, but is it really right?

Custom, dialect and other cultural considerations most certainly are both similar and yet differ regionally. But for those who say that they cannot understand the speech of one group to another, I just don't get it. When I read Rusyn, at least as printed in this country by our Greek Catholic church in the early-mid 20th. century, I see very, very little difference to the Galician dialect, except for certain verb forms and some vocabulary. I can easily understand both. I can't say the same thing in comparison to Slovak or Russian.

No doubt, the years of Hungarian domination in the Carpathians led to differences between Ruthenians in Sucarpathian Rus' and those in Halychyna. The Hungarian and Polish influences respectively are obvious. It is no surprise that in today's Hungry, Rusyns are mostly assimilated. That was the goal all along, during the imperial days. We all know how Rusyn culture was suppressed at various times, often ferociously. In Slovakia today, the same thing is occurring, evidently the outcome of decades of political pressure, much of which the church, partly as a survival technique, cooperated with. That is not to say that there aren't good intentions to allow Rusyn consciousness in those countries today, but for the majority, it may be too late.

With the "Ukrainian problem" I think we have to separate what the scenario was 50, 75 and 100 years ago and consider it in light of the organic development of the Ukrainian identity today, which I believe that Carpatho-Rusyns could have a legitimate part of. We have to remember that for centuries, the governments that were did not want to see a coming together of these people on both sides of the mountains who were then all considered "Rusyns." Stumbling blocks were put in the way, the effects of which are inbreeded into their decedents today.

All this considered, I have yet to understand the vast differences that some claim separate our two regional groups.

Fr. Joe