www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Keep writing to Rome! Letters do work!

There is no such word as "Latichnik" - and if there were, it would have something to do with brass!

Fr. Serge

Maybe "Latinik or Latin'ak"?

Ung

I think that's what I was going for.

If a half-hour is a short time for one to travel, then you should be appalled at the 45 minute RDL liturgies taking place at some parishes in the Cleveland area.

Should the drive one way be longer than the Liturgy?;)

Monomakh

Слава Ісусу Христу!

SAINT JOHN the forerunner and mother church of Pgh & S W PA
412-431-2531 http://stjohnspittsburgh.com/
Saturday 5 PM Vesper Liturgy recited English
SUNDAYS 8:30 Matins when announced
9:30 (9:40) AM DIVINE LITURGY a capella
Choir (1891), 4 part compositions as written by masters
Congregational harmony encouraged/expected
Occasional congregational chant lead by the cantor
Church Slavonic 30% (Ukrainian usage); choir composition, hymns
English 35% and Ukrainian 35% languages; priest’s prayers and meditations, litanies (ektenyas), scripture and movable parts (Gregorian calendar)
Stephen Zinski chanter, cantor and choir director
Approximate time 1:50 (25 sermon, 5 announcements).

St. John Ukrainian Greco Catholic Church (Checks payable “St. John”)
Parking on 7th street and parking lot off Carson Street across from church
(initiated 1888 at St. Adelbert’s RC for 900th anniversary of Rus’ Christendom and UNA/Narodni Souez co-operative,
PA incorporation 1891, building 1895, 1917 ongoing)
MAPQUEST: http://www.mapquest.com/
109 South Seventh Street, Pittsburgh, PA. 15203-1028
COMMON USAGE:
“Seventh at Carson Southside Pittsburgh”

Visual exterior:
http://stjohnspittsburgh.com/landscape2.jpg

Latynyk seems to be standard Ukrainian.

Fr. Serge

I looked at their website. Maybe we will go there tomorrow. I can't believe they actually have vespers every day of the week.

Thanks. I don't think I could stomach a recited liturgy. But it's probably far better then Archbishop Basil's RDL. It looks like we will finally give up and seriously start parish shopping. There are probably a dozen parishes within 5 miles we should check out.

The RDL is foreign. It is not ours. It is a bad imitation of the Roman Catholic Mass. I remember when we took a lot more of the liturgy. Our churches were full then. Every time they cut things and change things people leave. Why can’t they see this? Why don’t they care?

What’s worse is that those people at the seminary treat anyone who complains about the changes as if we are stupid. If we leave because we can’t stand what they have done to the liturgy the downfall of the church is all our fault.

Yeah. The parishes who did less still do less. The liturgy police only go after those who do more. Can’t they see those ugly green books are killing the church? Or maybe they see and don’t care?

Слава Ісусу Христу!

“I don't think I could stomach a recited liturgy.” Quote, Pittsburgh Byz

Check the schedule again. You are welcome on Sundays, when the traditional Liturgy is sung.

While I agree that the RDL needs work, the Orthodox liturgies aren't the ideal answers some here make out.

I have spent the summer on pilgrimage, going to different parishes as the Spirit directed. Over the months I have been to OCA, Greek Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Ukrainian (Orthodox and Catholic), etc. The purpose was not liturgical, but for the teachings. I started at Orthodox Pentecost, and will finish up at the end of this month.

Orthodox liturgies are anything but standard. Some do the Beatitudes, others do not. Some have a full procession incensing the church, others simply incense from the Iconostasis. Most have choirs, some just trained cantors, in almost every Orthodox church the people sat mute. Only at one Ukrainian Orthodox church did the people sing.

I was appalled at two churches in particular, one Greek the other OCA, where the people had a total lack of understanding of where they were. In the Greek church there were people in the nave talking and laughing as the Gospel was being read; those in the church proper were simply talking, only a handful were paying attention to the reading. The teaching was done at the end of Divine Liturgy, and featured a prominent monk from the Antiocian Village, sadly less than half of the people remained to listen, the other half walked out on him. Had I been the priest I would have been embarrassed to invite this distinguished person.

At the OCA church the back half of the church seemed more to be in a concert than at Divine Liturgy. They whispered among each other, walked in and out of the church constantly. The teaching was exceptional, and well worth the trip, sadly a full third of the people did not show up until it was almost over. The choir was grand, but not a single mouth opened among the people; well, not in song.

Yes, our liturgy isn't perfect, but it wasn't back when we had the blue books either. If you use the Orthodox church as the standard for perfection, the blue books fell far short. The new books are closer on some parts, further on others. Personally, I think the degenderfication, choir-like music, and the prayer endings (I do prefer "unto ages of ages") are mistakes.

It should have been rolled out to a few churches as a test study, then reworked as the comments came back. But, if you are leaving because of the changes then I question why you were here to start with. The purpose of the church is not to be a social club - that is Roman, not Eastern - it is for teaching and communion (both the sacrament and the fellowship).

The Eastern Divine Liturgy has been changing continuously over the centuries. At one time it took up almost an entire day - would you stay that long? I doubt it, I hear people complain when the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil is done during the Great Fast (NOT Lent).

I have a prayer book from my grandmother, circa 1890, it bears little resemblance to the blue book. Prayers were longer, the filioque did not exist, the Beatitudes were a standard part, there are prayers in her book which are missing entirely from the blue book. According to her, Divine Liturgy was 90 minutes, not including the teaching, 2 hours during the Great Fast.

By all means, write your letters. But do so in a spirit of fellowship, not in anger.

Change is fine, provided that it is of an organic nature. I wouldn't classify the "Sui Juris Byzantine Metropolitan Church of America's" new RDL as an organic change, especially the forced gender-inclusive text.

Ung

I think you can find talking during the Divine Liturgy at almost any church - Latin, Byzantine Catholic, or Orthodox. At least that has been my experience in Roman Catholic, Melkite Catholic, Byzantine Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, and OCA parishes. I used to be Roman Catholic.

Sadly, the people have not been educated. In every choir I have been in, the people talk, even if the priest looks up and frowns.

Conspicuously posting an illuminated sign in calligraphy with the words "Let all mortal flesh keep silence" does help, but only for a while.

We had one priest who tried to address that situation, but at the next annual parish meeting several, old ladies who were hard of hearing let the pastor know that they did not appreciate being singled out for their lack of silence. They asked if the pastor really needed that cell phone and if the parish should be paying for his rectory phone. It was so sad.
He bit his tongue from that time on.

Yes, write to Rome. Tell them that the people cannot focus on the Divine Liturgy with the lack of devout words. Lex orandi, lex credendi.

Слава Ісусу Христу!

“…social club – THAT is Roman, not Eastern – it is for teaching and communion…” quote # 297840 by Proskvnetes

Mike,
Did you mean “Roman” or was that a slip that should have read “Western”, as in cultural which we US Easterners also belong? One thing I must say about the RCs they welcome everyone, especially the ones most of us would rather not see in our clubs. They schedule for the convenience of their people with different deliveries and lengths unlike our one service fits all so take it or leave. As for “teaching” turn on the TV or radio, the preacher’s delivery is only as believable as his actions. As for the “communion” the liturgical (not the translation) is divinely inspired and the fellowship is only meaningful if you can bring it home. That cube of brad parents give to their stay at home adult children Sundays says volumes.