www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Vote for next U.S. President

When at least two conditions are fulfilled:
a) there is sufficient support for (or at least interest in) monarchy as to make it a serious possibility, and,
b) when the incumbent government is such that one cannot morally support it in any serious degree.

Fr. Serge

Dear Father Deacon,

"Render unto Caesar . . ." occurs in all three synoptics, but is one of the most overquoted and misunderstood passages in the entire Bible.

Nothing at all can really be said to belong to Caesar to the exclusion of God (yes, that includes the coinage). When the current "Caesar" starts demanding that we should be complicit in killing people - whether actually doing the killing or "simply" financing it - then "Caesar" has cross the line and is violating his function. One always has an obligation to try to determine just what "Caesar" is up to, especially when he is up to it with our funds and perhaps our votes.

Fr. Serge

Dear Paul B.,

The above is a most positively excellent post. Thank you for reminding us all of these facts about President Bush, and for giving us food for thought about what we want our next President's values to be...

The only place I will disagree with you, (and it is something which I sadly believe has given more power to those who are pro-abortion), is equating birth control with abortion. They are quite different.

I totally agree with what you wrote about changing hearts, but another point which is grossly overlooked, is the culture around us at every blink of an eye which actually promotes unmarried sexual licentiousness to young persons rather than marriage, and the unspoken consequence of the promiscuity which the younger generation has been brought up to engage in (in universities which promote coed dorms and bathrooms, in ads, in television, movies, magazines, schools, etc.) which is, unfortunately, unwanted pregnancy.

Therefore, I suggest that our very culture, (with Hollywood sitting on the throne of this reign of pagan immorality) which has been sold and readily adapted around the Western Christian world, is at the heart of the numbers of abortion we are seeing.

Alice

Alice,

As you know, though, in certain cases they are tragically synonymous, such as in the case with the IUD and the secondary effect of "the Pill" which makes the uterus hostile to implantation of a child that has been conceived. I think it is usually the pro-abortion side of the issue that very often treats abortifacients like these, as well as RU-486, as "birth control".

I certainly would not equate the use of a condom with abortion, but I do think that abortion on demand is very much a fruit of the "birth control mentality" that has come about with its widespread practice. This tragedy, of course, is what was prophesied by Pope Paul VI in Humanae Vitae.

Whether or not one agrees with the use, however limited, of artificial birth control, I think that Fr. Deacon Paul's broader point is true: we certainly do NOT want a president who will use the bully pulpit and his presidential powers to advocate for and support greater access to these "services" with all of the resources of the federal branch both on our shores and overseas. Studies have demonstrated that where there is greater access to contraceptives, there is also a corresponding rise in abortion rates due to failure and the mentality which separates the generation of new life from the sexual act. Obama is in the back pocket of "Big Abortion" and this industry of death knows that revenues are down under George W since he has restricted them and defunded them at the federal level. Profit margins under the reign of the "media-messiah" Obama will look quite different since he is decidedly in their corner and back pocket.

I am of the opinion that despite whatever criticism that can be made about President Bush by his many detractors on the war and other issues, his pro-life record on abortion and stem cell research is unassailable in comparison with all of his predecessors.

In ICXC,

Fr. Deacon Daniel

Maranatha!

CDL

Fr. Serge,

Perhaps, but how am I misquoting it?

Quite true, yet God has given some things to Caesar, as Jesus explained to Pilate in Jn. 19:11.

Do you mean to imply here that the US Government today is somehow less righteous than the Roman Imperial Government under Tiberias?

No argument here. In fact, this is where I fault the "Christian Right," who elected Bush and could have exercised a lot more influence on his actions as President.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

And peace to your spirit!

The misquote usually occurs when someone tries to tell us to give all obedience to Caesar whenever Caesar demands it - as, for instance, in the case of military conscription.

Yes, God has given some things to Caesar. No, the gift is not unconditional!

Tiberias is no longer around; he has presumably been judged already, and I most certainly have no reason to sit in judgement on him.

The US government in my own lifetime is quite another matter. I cannot be held complicit in the Roman government under Tiberias, and I do not care to be held complicit in the activities of the American government where certain matters are concerned. For further reading, try Bishop John-Michael's pastoral letter about the war and why we should have nothing to do with it.

The behavior you correctly mention of the self-styled "Christian Right" is among the reasons why I am highly suspicious of that motley crew.

Fr. Serge

Deacon Paul,

Excellent post!

That's the whole issue in a nutshell. We have to avoid a mentality of "the glass is half empty."


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Another way of distinguishing the two major presidential candidates is this:

One would continue and strengthen abortion as a constitutional right.

One would contain the constitutional right and allow the legislative branches (federal and state) to place restrictions.

Neither will end abortion on a national scale as allowed by Executive power (which in itself is unconstitutional.)

The "lesser evil" is very clear.

This also emphasizes the importance of electing state and federal legislators who respect the "Right to Life." This is often overlooked.


For political purposes the birth control issue for the most part shouldn't be tied to the abortion issue. However, culturely and morally, it is the product of materialsism and contributes greatly to the "culture of death" by entering the "slippery slope," the momentum which leads to a desensitizing that eventually leads to the lack of respect for Marriage and Life. However, I do acknowledge Alice that they are different issues in our present culture.

Fr Deacon Paul

Fr. Deacon Paul, the "slippery slope" is actually a logical fallacy, not a sound argument. Also, it is difficult to establish this "momentum" as being factual. Much depends on interpretation.

Joe

Wolfgang, you do realize that McCain had an unfair advantage? While Rev. Warren was saying McCain was in a cone of silence, the reality was that McCain had not arrived at the church until halfway through Obama's presentation. The odds are that he listened to it or had people in the audience who got information to him about what had gone on in the first half hour. In a word, the deck was stacked against Obama. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032619/#26268869

That is speculation. The real problem is how Obama performs without a speechwriter.

Obama is not an orator, he is a good reader. There is a big difference between the two.

Terry

Are you serious?? It is no secret that Mr. Obama believes in killing babies. It is no secret that one of the few things that Mr. McCain shares with Catholics is his belief that killing babies is wrong. Both men revealed what they believed. There was nothing new here. I wish we had a Catholic society and a Catholic government. I don't particularly like either candidate. I also know that the media know virtually nothing about Christianity and will talk like dufasses on the subject all the time. I'm surprised that you would buy into their ignorant approach.
CDL

How many times, Father? We have 50 states plus the District of Columbia.