www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Vote for next U.S. President

To those considering voting either for a third-party candidate or for an independent candidate, I suggest the wisdom of Eugene Victor Debs:

"I would rather vote for what I want, and perhaps not get it, than vote for what I do not want, and be sure to get it!"

Fr. Serge

Fr. Deacon Paul,

My apologies for misunderstanding your point.

Francis,

No problem; the wonderful thing about communication is that it allows misunderstandings to be cleared up.

Great quote, Father!

Thanks! I like Debs.

Fr. Serge

An interesting take on the Saddleback Church discussion...

August 21st, 2008 by David J. Hartline ·Print ·ShareThis

The Civil Forum sponsored by the Saddleback Church and its founder and pastor Rick Warren was the first chance for the voters to see presidential candidates Senator John McCain and Senator Barack Obama answer questions about faith. What the voters actually saw was a polished Senator Obama using illustrative words and nice platitudes but saying very little. Senator McCain, though less polished, showed his serious engagement with the demands of the Gospel. Pastor Rich Warren, an admirable man, both showed us the failings of this format and a glimpse of the coming collapse of the Mega Church Era.

Listening to Senator Obama I was reminded of my days in as a teacher. Every high school teacher or college professor has a few students they can recall who wrote excellent papers or gave spell-binding speeches that really said very little. So it was with Senator Obama. When Pastor Rick Warren asked Senator Obama when life begins, he said, “…that is above my pay grade,” Senator McCain, simply said, “Life begins at conception.”

It was like that much of the evening.

I imagine many, like me, were watching the Olympics that evening. I only saw the forum when CNN repeated it at midnight once the Olympic coverage was over. It was vintage Senator Obama, though Senator McCain outshined him. Senator Obama’s delivery made it appear to many that he could hold his own against Senator McCain in appealling to an Evangelical audience.

As some of you are aware, I noted in my book, The Tide is Turning Toward Catholicism that the mega-church era has peaked and is on its way down. I have written that I believe few if any mega churches will be in their current form in the year 2020. After watching the Civil Forum at the Saddleback Church, I am tempted to move up the date of my projection. As I have said on numerous occasions, Pastor Rick Warren is a truly amazing man who has helped many, especially in the Third World. He reverse tithes the profits from his 25 million-seller book, The Purpose Driven Life, which means he has given away 90% of the profits, a truly admirable gesture.

However, being a leader of a church and just sitting there while a presidential candidate says that the answer to when life begins is beyond his pay grade, is truly an abdication of leadership. What are Christians suppose to take away from this? Was Senator Obama’s answer in keeping with Christian tradition? It would appear that since the pastor of one of America’s largest mega churches never asked for a clarification or never explained to the contrary, supporters of Senator Obama are left to think he must have spoken correctly.

Compare Pastor Rick Warren, one of Evangelicalism’s most beloved pastors with a Catholic bishop loved by orthodox-minded Catholics. I just can’t imagine the recently transferred Archbishop Burke, formerly of St Louis or Archbishop Naumann of Kansas City listening to Senator Obama’s response and not doing something about it. Pastor Rick Warren said he didn’t want Senator McCain or Senator Obama demonized. They are both great men, said Pastor Warren. However, the Spiritual Works of Mercy tell us we must admonish the sinner. It doesn’t mean that they have to be demonized just challenged.

The whole mega-church model of marketing and telling people what they want to hear comes apart at the seams when a church leader can’t defend or at least “call out” a presidential candidates who says knowing when life begins is above his pay grade. Senator Obama also said he would not have selected Justice Clarence Thomas for the Supreme Court because he was too inexperienced. Again the irony cried out for a response from Pastor Rick Warren. None was given. To be sure, the Catholic Church has been let down by some in leadership positions in the Church who also completely abdicated their responsibilities. We are well aware of who they were and what they did and didn’t do. However, it is in performances like we saw Saturday night that we see the mega-church plan for what it is: a movement that wants people to feel good and not be threatened by liturgy, rules, or the hard words of Jesus. Too many mega churches seem more into Stephen Covey or Oprah Winfrey and their slogan may be “location, location, location,” instead of “repent and believe the Gospel.” Saturday night was very illuminating in more ways than one.

http://www.catholicexchange.com/2008/08/21/113546/

Let's not be so honest, there are still people who believe in the Obama myth and won't take well to having their hopes shattered.

Interestingly, Pastor Warren didn't even ask them when life begins, he asked when a baby gets "human rights". This is a legal question, not a philosophical, medical, or theological question. As such, a presidential candidate should have a clear answer to the question - saying it's "above my pay grade" is a cop-out of the first order.

I imagine Mr. Obama had a prepared answer to the inevitable abortion question, and Pastor Warren tripped him up by not asking it exactly as he expected.

Fascinating insight about the demise of the mega church. As a defender of this movement during the late 1980's and early 90's I have seen the serious error of my ways. I hope and pray that he is right about the demise of this movement and have long ago asked forgiveness of those who disagreed with me 20 years ago.

CDL

The biggest problem I see with the megachurch is that the Object of worship can be obscured by objects of attention, most especially the pastor.

ZAROVE:

We are not in the habit of addressing our clergy members in the manner you do here.

"Father Serge" or "Father Keleher" or "Father Archimandrite Serge" are all acceptable ways to address our clergy members, but the following is not:



In Christ,

BOB

Amen. Amen. Amen.

Dn. Robert

The latest Zogby Poll taken after the Saddleback mega-Church appearance of both presidential candidates shows McCain leading Obama 45% to 36% among Catholic voters and 46% to 41% among ALL voters.

As reported by the Catholic News Agency:

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=13599

Amado

How 'bout a third choice?

Ung

Obama-Biden

Both pro-choice.