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So, I was just watching Michael Dukakis on Larry King, and decided to do some reading on his history. In the process, I came across this article, which to me as a Catholic is disturbing. I'd like to know some of the Orthodox posters' views on how the Greek Archdiocese reacted to Dukakis' pro-abortion stances. The article spends much time juxtaposing the Catholic Church's defense of the traditional Christian view of right to life when Geraldine Ferraro (a Catholic) was running as VP in '84 against the Greek Church's relative "free pass" to Mr. Dukakis. From http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=printSeptember 7, 1988
Dukakis's Ties to Orthodox Church Stay Warm Despite Abortion Stance
By ARI L. GOLDMAN
LEAD: Four years ago the Democratic Vice-Presidential nominee, a Roman Catholic, was chastised by several Catholic bishops for favoring abortion rights. This year the Democratic Presidential nominee, who is Greek Orthodox, takes the same position but has encountered only the warm embrace of his church.
Four years ago the Democratic Vice-Presidential nominee, a Roman Catholic, was chastised by several Catholic bishops for favoring abortion rights. This year the Democratic Presidential nominee, who is Greek Orthodox, takes the same position but has encountered only the warm embrace of his church.
The Greek Orthodox Church shares the Catholic antipathy to abortion, but experts on the denomination say the opposition takes a different form and, in any event, the ethnic bond with Gov. Michael S. Dukakis is stronger than the religious tie that ensnared Geraldine A. Ferraro in 1984.
''Theologically, Greek Orthodoxy is much looser and more centered on mystery than the much more legalistic Roman Catholicism,'' said Charles Moskos, who is revising his 1980 book ''Greek Americans: Struggle and Success'' to include a chapter on Mr. Dukakis.
''Our tolerance levels are greater,'' said Mr. Moskos, a professor of sociology at Northwestern University and himself a Greek-American, ''and Michael is still considered within the tolerance levels.'' 'A Son of the Church'
Archbishop Iakovos, head of the two-million-member Greek Orthodox Church in North and South America, calls Mr. Dukakis ''a son of the church'' and recently defended him against attacks from a small group of Orthodox conservatives and Republicans who have charged that Mr. Dukakis has ''excommunicated himself'' by favoring abortion rights and by marrying a non-Christian.
Under Orthodox church law, someone who marries outside the church cannot receive the sacraments of the church, including holy communion. Mr. Dukakis's wife, Kitty, is Jewish. ''He did not leave the church,'' the Archbishop said in an interview earlier this summer with the Associated Press. ''He is not excluded. He's not the only one who has married outside the church.'' Seventy percent of Greek Orthodox marriages are with those of other denominations, he said, and an increasing number are with Jews.
According to his campaign headquarters, Mr. Dukakis is a member of the Greek Orthodox Annunciation Cathedral in Boston. George Stephanopoulos, a campaign spokesman in Boston, said that Mr. Dukakis attends church on holidays and frequently on Sundays. The issue of his taking the sacraments, Mr. Stephanopoulos said, ''is between him and his priest.''
The spokesman added: ''The Governor considers himself a religious man and close to the church. Religion is not something he takes lightly.''
Archbishop Iakovos has known the Dukakis family since Michael Dukakis was growing up in Brookline, Mass. From 1942 to 1954, the Archbishop was dean of the Annunciation Cathedral, to which the Dukakis family belonged, and remembers Mr. Dukakis as a Sunday school pupil with ''a very good head on his shoulders.'' Over the years, the Archbishop said he has encouraged the Governor's political career, sometimes praying with him. Contrast Between 2 Faiths
The Archbishop stopped short of endorsing Mr. Dukakis for President and, in a public show of bipartisanship, offered prayers at both the Democratic convention in Atlanta and at the Republican convention in New Orleans.
The Orthodox prelate's position contrasts strikingly with that of some Roman Catholic churchmen. Archbishop John F. Whealon of Hartford announced last month that he was ''unable in conscience to remain a registered Democrat'' because of the party's support for abortion rights. And in the heat of the 1984 Presidential campaign, John Cardinal O'Connor, the Archbishop of New York, said he did not see how a Catholic could vote for anyone who did not oppose abortion. He attacked Ms. Ferraro for ''giving the world to understand that Catholic teaching is divided'' on abortion.
Among Orthodox Christians, there is also a small anti-abortion group, but even its organizers concede that it has not caught fire among the Greek Orthodox. Valerie Protopapas, the educational director of the Long Island-based Orthodox Christians for Life, said that other denominations, such as the Orthodox Church in America, have been more active. While a handful of Greek Orthodox priests have been involved, none of the 15 Greek bishops have participated, she said.
The strongest criticism of Mr. Dukakis within the Greek denomination came from James G. Jatras, the Washington representative of Orthodox Christians for Life and a foreign policy analyst for the Republican Policy Committee, which serves the Republican Party in the Senate.
In a letter to The Greek American, a weekly newspaper published in Astoria, Queens, Mr. Jatras wrote that the euphoria about a Greek-American candidate had obscured the issue that Mr. Dukakis ''holds views incompatible with our Orthodox faith.''
''Most of his supporters know little about how estranged he is from his roots, Mr. Jatras wrote.
Archbishop Iakovos dismissed the attack and the attackers, saying, ''It came from small people.'' 'Happy to Have Him'
The second in command at the Archdiocese, Bishop Isaiah, was similarly upbeat about Mr. Dukakis. While acknowledging that some of the candidate's positions had created ''some confusion'' in the church, he said, ''We are happy to have him there for the areas where we agree.''
When asked about the Dukakis's mixed-faith marriage, Bishop Isaiah saw a silver lining. ''I really hope that the fact that we are forced to face this problem, we will address it in a proper way for all our people,'' he said. ''And for this we will be able to thank Dukakis in the future.''
Mr. Moskos, the Northwestern sociologist and author, said the Greek Orthodox stance on Mr. Dukakis demonstrated the church's position ''as halfway between an ethnic church and a mainline church.''
''Until it overcomes its ethnic inferiority complex,'' he said, ''it will always be a little more tolerant of its sons and daughters who don't adhere 100 percent to the canons of the church.'' I am particularly bothered by Charles Moskos, whomever that is, and his comments about how Catholicism's just so hung up on defending life in the womb from being murdered because it's "legalistic" and the Orthodox hierarchy doesn't say much about it because Orthodoxy is oh-so-mystical. I think that's unfair to both Catholicism and Orthodoxy, to paint it that way. Do you think this situation has changed in the two decades since this happened? I guess you can't know for sure because you haven't had a Greek rise to that level of stature since then, but what would be your guesses? I would imagine that as the GOA becomes less ethnic, it has changed a little. I would hope so. Alexis
Last edited by Logos - Alexis; 09/05/08 12:56 AM.
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The note about the Senator's marriage to a Jew interests me. Was she quietly baptized "for the occasion"? If not, did the marriage take place in an Orthodox Church? Or were they married in a synagogue? Or was there simply a civil ceremony?
This is a more serious question than one might think, because the canons (cf. Council in Trullo) absolutely forbid a marriage between an Orthodox Christian and a non-Christian, and the service-books make no provision whatever for such a wedding service.
As for the attempt to get out of the problems by saying that Dukakis is valuable for those points on which we agree, that could be said about, literally, absolutely anyone. Adolf Hitler liked dogs, and so do I.
Fr. Serge
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''Theologically, Greek Orthodoxy is much looser and more centered on mystery than the much more legalistic Roman Catholicism,'' said Charles Moskos Sigh... Repeat something often enough, eh?
Last edited by A Simple Sinner; 09/05/08 02:06 AM.
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Quote:
''Theologically, Greek Orthodoxy is much looser and more centered on mystery than the much more legalistic Roman Catholicism,'' said Charles Moskos
That sort of verbiage does not and cannot justify support for abortion! One might legitimately discuss how, as a matter of tactics, it would be best to pursue the goal of stopping the abortions (the murder of doctors is unacceptable, even though it might sound superficially attractive). My own thought in the matter tends to be that this is best done by concerted, consistent efforts to reach and change public opinion; many others think that it is best to seek to change the existing laws permitting abortion. Since by God's grace I live in a place where abortion is illegal, I am perhaps more sensitive to attempts to manipulate public opinion than I might be if I lived somewhere that legalizes "abortion on demand".
But that discussion on tactics is not an attempt to reconcile the irreconcilable!
Fr. Serge
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Mr. Moskos, the Northwestern sociologist and author, said the Greek Orthodox stance on Mr. Dukakis demonstrated the church's position ''as halfway between an ethnic church and a mainline church.'' This perhaps sums it up the best. For this reason, it does not like getting involved in the country's politics. This does not mean that it condones abortion and that it is not considered a grave sin, with period of excommunication associated with it. However, like the conservative and Orthodox Jews, it simply does not like being 'activist' against the existing laws of the land. As tragic as abortion is, and as horribly and sinfully misguided those who think it is a 'fundamental right' are, the sad truth is that whether it is legal or not, it will always be available. Our tax dollars should not pay for it, because in that, all of our hands become bloodied. However, does that mean because we pay taxes that we are to be excommunicated? Does that mean that because we are Americans and our land has this law that we too are guilty of the sin? Along this line of thinking, perhaps, the Greek Orthodox Church does not condemn politicians. The politician may be personally morally opposed to abortion. This is a very tough moral dilemma. Surely, the murder of innocents is tragic, but isn't the popular culture which glamorizes sexual promiscuity just as tragic? Why do we sit back and allow colleges to dictate sexual mores by dorming men and women in joint bathrooms and dorm floors? Why do we sit back and allow colleges to allow men and women to be together without chaperones? Why do we give money to Hollywood by seeing the movies they produce? Why are we not marching on Hollywood against this culture of sex which they have imposed and pushed on our children, young people, and young adults, and on the whole world? Surely, no one can say that the logical outcome of all the sexual activity which occurs (whether we want to accept it or turn a blind eye doesn't matter--it is happening) is often abortion. Are we not just as responsible for these abortions then by also telling our young people that they must be educated and living on their own before they can get married? Shouldn't we be doing everything to change our culture back to one where young people, as is the norm that God created for them, were getting married instead of waiting for their careers to take off, their diplomas to be granted, their nest egg for a house to be saved up, etc.? In many Muslim countries, young married couples live with a set of parents in the beginning. Why is that so 'not the thing to do' in the U.S.? How can we expect then these young people who are not getting married until their thirties to also be chaste? They aren't living with their families even when they are not married. The point I am getting to is that the whole lousy system of what is expected of young people to do to live 'mainstream' in the U.S. (and Europe has caught on) has created the problem of pre-marital sexuality and its consequence which is abortion. What I find odd lately is how many people lately are uncomfortable with Sarah Palin's daughter. Why? She is getting married to the father of her baby and she did not have an abortion. "Well", some answer, "she is so young". That is the mentality that has created the mess we have today! That is exactly the age that young people should be getting married. That is the age God intended for His people to get married, and to not be tempted into years of sin. So think about it: the reactions I hear everywhere from people I know and people I don't, from the television and from the man on the street is: we rather not know!! THAT is the ultimate tragedy of abortion...so many people just don't want to know...When was the last time you saw a pregnant teen in your church? I can bet that there have been many, but they just haven't kept the babies. 'It isn't something that happens in solid middle class America, in Orthodox churches, in Catholic churches, in this or that community...etc...' But it does, and the answer to why we don't see them is: abortion. Parents and others don't want to know that so many young people are engaging in sex...until its too late. Yet, when the person chooses to have the baby it becomes so 'taboo'. Without knowing, or perhaps without wanting it, what the reaction to Sarah Palin's daughter's pregnancy is bring out into the open is that those very reactions are ultimately supporting abortion. Alice
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Although not new news, it is certainly distressing to read. Equally as distressing in my opinion is participation of church leaders at the Democratic Convention. I think Archbishop Chaput's snubbing was actually quite a complement. Mr. Moskos, the Northwestern sociologist and author, said the Greek Orthodox stance on Mr. Dukakis demonstrated the church's position ''as halfway between an ethnic church and a mainline church. The Pew Forum is probably a good resource since it surveys the attitudes of the religous landscape. If you look at their comparison page [ religions.pewforum.org] in the social and political views section, you'll see Orthodox respondents come out looking heavily like the mainline.
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But, Alice, you say: However, like the conservative and Orthodox Jews, it simply does not like being 'activist' against the existing laws of the land. But Orthodox priests, and even bishops had no trouble marching and demonstrating with the likes of MLK Jr. and others across the country in the Civil Rights Movement. What's the difference? They were actively lobbying for a change in law and policy back then, when people's lives were only very rarely at stake, and yet, when millions of innocents are slaughtered by their own mothers every year, they can't do the same? You'd think with all the disarray in the Catholic Church after Vatican II, the roles would be reversed. I guess sometimes stories like this make me wonder what the point of a good liturgy is when it doesn't translate into making us behave more like Christians. Alexis
Last edited by Logos - Alexis; 09/05/08 10:35 AM.
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With all due respect, I have made many points that no Catholic seems to want to address. Are we not equally guilty of supporting abortion when we inadvertently keep quiet about the culture of sex? Where is the voice of the Catholic church in this arena? The issue of making abortion illegal is not as black and white as it is potrayed. Our cultural landscape has changed since that law went into effect. Dating, on the great part, is no longer a chaste pasttime as it was in the 1950's. Ending legalized abortion is not going to end abortions or the culture of sex. However, ending the culture of sex will make a great dent in the number of abortions, legal or illegal.
There is a whole grey area of sexual immorality imposed on our culture and perpetuated by all of us in keeping up with the American ideals...college, graduate school, living on one's own, career, money, down payment for a house, and THEN marriage.
Anyway, as for the Greek Orthodox Church marching or not marching, I would honestly say that more of the battle is being waged in our own communities...in catechising people about the sin of abortion, in hearing confessions from those who have had them, from giving spiritual healing, counseling and love so that they can move on, forgive themselves, and be the Christians that God wants them to be. 'Go and sin no more', in essence.
On the other hand, I will also concede that another factor in not joining this movement in a loud and vocal way may also be because we are so dependent upon the financial support of those Orthodox christians who are Democrats. Therefore, not wanting to offend anybody overtly, we stay out of this particular political issue and catechise to them privately and covertly.
I used to be critical of this approach of my church, but have come to think that too much strong protest creates the opposite effect...and that perhaps a more gentle, pastoral and quiet method to the masses of one's own faithful is indeed best.
After all, are we fighting for life and souls, or for a law? What good would that law be if we could keep people from using it? The law would mean nothing if we could render it useless.
I have come to believe that the war to make abortion illegal is being lost because the tactic and the strategy is wrong. We are ignoring the enemy's inroads in his other guises...
For instance, instead of keeping horrific late term abortion permanently illegal, and moving quietly for more victories after that victory, the vocal pro-life movement has created the opposite effect in the pro-choice movement..a reaction of fear, hysteria, and rebellion. Because these passions have been roused in the 'enemy' camp, the evil one is confusing them into a state of illogic and desensitization.
As for your last remark Alexis, I think that is unfair. I don't know that Catholics are having any less abortions than Orthodox in the U.S. I also don't think that saying that the Orthodox are not behaving like Christians because they chose to not be heavily involved in the politics of abortion is fair either.
It is this very judgementalism on the part of many Roman Catholics that has created more resistance and more madness on the part of the pro-choicers...it is the very strategy that I was referring to as backfiring. Judgementalism and intolerance are the very things that make conservative Christians hated, feared and are turning many young people away from organized religion.
In Christ,
Alice
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Alice,
Two excellent posts! I agree with everything you have said.
Joe
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Alice,
Thank you for your thoughts. There is certainly a lot to think about and you make many good points, and I agree with you on the whole.
Please understand that I wasn't saying that Orthodox act somehow "less Christian" than Catholics in this regard, but just that I do not think the silence by Orthodox hierarchs in regard to this case is appropriate.
And if you read the article, Archbishop Iakovos dismissed those in your Church who would seek to correct Mr. Dukakis by calling them "small people." With all due respect to His Eminence Iakovos, God rest his soul, this comment comes off not only as snobby, but it *appears* to give the impression that it's all about politics and power, and as you say, the Church is willing to compromise to as not to offend members with money who donate to the Archdiocese.
Alexis
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With all due respect, I have made many points that no Catholic seems to want to address. Are we not equally guilty of supporting abortion when we inadvertently keep quiet about the culture of sex? Popes Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI? Theology of the Body? The repeated declarations of the Holy See against divorce, contraception, pornography, de facto unions, pre-marital sex, the loss of the sense of sin? Cardinals who thundered versus sexual corruption such as John O'Connor, Jaime Sin, Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, Alfred Bengsch, Marcelo Gonzalez Martin, Gustaaf Joos and Edouard Gagnon? How about living luminaries such as Francis Arinze and Angelo Scola? How about the hundreds of Catholic theologians, pastors and writers who have made it their life's work to defend every aspect of the Christian vision of human life, family and sexuality? In the reigns of Pope Pius XI and Pius XII there were magisterial declarations versus immorality in film, and John XXIII issued repeated condemnations of immodesty in women's dress. These remain in effect. The fact is that NO OTHER CHURCH IN THE WORLD has been as comprehensive and as uncompromising in its open war on the corruption of human sexuality, as the Catholic Church.
Last edited by asianpilgrim; 09/05/08 03:25 PM.
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The abortion issue is one of the reasons why I think the Holy See should cultivate relations with the Russian Orthodox Church. Whatever the faults of Russian Orthodoxy -- and these are many --the fact remains that Russian Orthodoxy (MP and ROCOR) and its daughter churches (OCA, for instance) have been strongly vocal against abortion (albeit much of this pro-life activity is unknown to most Catholics). Yes, it is true that Russia has high levels of abortion, but these have in fact significantly lessened since the Communist era, and honesty demands that we Catholics recognize the serious and earnest efforts of the Russians on pro-life issues. We should -- IMHO -- accept Bishop Hilarion's offer of a united front between Rome and Moscow.
In contrast -- and I believe that the question demands to be asked -- can the Holy See count on the Greek churches to stand up publicly against abortion? I hope so, but some recent examples give little cause for optimism on this matter.
(In fairness we must also point out that Patriarch Athenagoras did openly support Humanae Vitae)
Last edited by asianpilgrim; 09/05/08 03:41 PM.
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And if you read the article, Archbishop Iakovos dismissed those in your Church who would seek to correct Mr. Dukakis by calling them "small people." With all due respect to His Eminence Iakovos, God rest his soul, this comment comes off not only as snobby, but it *appears* to give the impression that it's all about politics and power, and as you say, the Church is Dear Alexis, To a great degree what you observe in this comment and this attitude is correct..that administration was like that, it was much to the dislike of many faithful, and there is no hiding it. There was an immigrant mentality that was more interested in presenting ethnic achievers and achievements over matters of the soul and faith. Greek Orthodox priests and hierarchs under four hundred years of Ottoman Turk occupation were 'ethnarks' (those leaders who kept the ethnicity alive)...this special leadership position came over to the new world with immigrants, was ingrained in the psyche of the recently liberated Greek person, and being that it is only a hundred years since that liberation from the Ottomans, it will take time to diffuse that mentality... Regards, Alice Dear AsianPilgrim, Sadly, you seem to be missing the points that I was trying to make, and I am a great admirer of all the Popes. My statements had nothing to do with them or with offending the Catholic Church, whom I have always have had high admiration for... In Christ, Alice
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Making excuses for contraception and the deafening indifference to abortion (not the same as not getting played by cynical politicians) are together a black eye on American Orthodoxy.
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Making excuses for contraception and the deafening indifference to abortion (not the same as not getting played by cynical politicians) are together a black eye on American Orthodoxy. Such harsh, offensive, non charitable and judgemental remarks do more to put a black eye on the anti-abortion movement, and do a disservice to Christianity working together for good. Such an attitude also does no good for all the young people who have fallen into the great lie of sexual license promoted everywhere in their world. Alice, Moderator
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