www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Green book... Liturgical and Scriptural Hymns - Accept me today..

1. When is page 460 used? As a replacement to the prosaic communion profession or by itself somewhere?

2. I had heard that the bishop of Van Nuys had forbidden "The Doors! The Doors!" from being spoken. Why?

3. At some Ruthenian parishes I have been to everyone prays orans during the Our Father. Is this the norm?

4. Do many parishes go around the nave for the entrances or simply from the altar and a short path to the holy doors?

I can answer....

#3 Not at any parishes in the Cleveland-area. I thought that was a Latinization???

#4 In my Cleveland-area parish my priest is working toward removing the Latinizations, and is doing both entrances correctly. However, in a parish in Youngstown that I visited, they just went around the altar and called it a day.

A Roman Catholic friend of mine said that this is done at his parish. I've never seen it done in any Orthodox or Greek Catholic church.

On 3. That was my question. Praying orans is certainly an early practice, but I wondered whether it came from that or Roman scope creep.

On 4. Maybe if you put down bright yellow footprints for them to follow?

1. It is to be used as a Communion hymn, after the Communion Antiphon has been said.

2. The Doors! The Doors! has been in brackets since the Blue Book and as such are said at the bishop's discretion. I believe the thought on that is since we don't dismiss the catechumens (or anyone else), we therefore don't secure the doors, so there is no point in making the command to do so.

3. Not in Pittsburgh or anywhere I've visited.

4. I think most parishes do the shorter entrance: around the Holy Table, out the north door, back in the Holy Doors, and this is what is prescribed in the Ordo.

It may be a Latinization, but it's a Latin abuse, the adoption by the laity of the posture proper to the priest at that point.

The 'orans position' isn't an abuse "per sé" - in the Syriac Churches, the laity pray the Our Father in the orans position (sans hand holding)...

1. My parish uses the hymn as Fr. Deacon Lance suggests above.
3. Not in my parish either, though I have been told that in private prayer the orans position may be used if so desired.
4. My parish priest uses both. The pattern I've observed is that when the Beatitudes are used or when we are celebrating a feast that has an "extended" third antiphon, he will go around the nave, otherwise not. This is for the Little Entrance (with the Gospel book) only. He goes around the nave at the Great Entrance only at Presanctified.

Our liturgical course books for the clergy, from St Anne's seminary in Jerusalem, report the custom of the people raising their hands during the recitation of the Our Father to have already been an old, established custom. These books were written in the eighteenth century.

Latin abuse or not (within the Latin rite), it's certainly a tradition with some length of tenure within the churches of the Middle East, at least.

Greetings to all -- from Florida
I offer some "food for thought" after returning from my drive to Uniontown for the Labor Day weekend.
What is more important -- HOW people pray, or the fact that they pray?
For example: (item #4)we have a small church building. Our younger pastors had no problem going around the whole church for the entrances. We also have an older parish ( as in age of a lot of parishioners, and the good priest now filling in for us ) -- Is it absolutely canonically important that the priest walks around the whole nave area, or are we still praying if he goes from the side altar to the ambon? Or if the Communion bread is pre-cut, before Proskomedia, to help arthritic hands?
(item #2) Did anybody ASK the Bishop of Van Nuys if he has "forbidden" certain words, or is it just a rumor? A while back, in the discussion of the "RDL" it was mentioned that Church Slavonic was "forbidden" at the RDL -- in Uniontown, we sang "Mnohaja Lita"," and we sang MARIAN HYMNS before and after the Liturgy concelebrated by the Archbishop and others, in Enlish and in Rusyn-Slavonic -- and no one complained about it!
I wonder how many read the opening page to the Byzantine Catholic Website. This week, it spoke of sitting at the Lord's feet, and Martha being "anxious and worried" about many things, when only one thing is necessary...maybe we can all try to choose the "better part," like Mary did, and not worry so much about how much of the ritual we can follow.
Let us pray, with hands raised, or on our knees, or in churches or cars or houses -- but let us all pray.
Andy Kovaly

Andy,

As I recall, during the Sunday 4:00 PM Pontifical-Hierarchial Divine Liturgy,
one Marian hymn was sung in both English and Rusyn-Slavonic and one "Many Years" petition was sung in Church Slavonic. To me, that is a token use of Church Slavonic at a pilgrimage that traditionally used a lot of Church Slavonic. I'll be glad to send you a dvd copy of the c.1989 and c.1990 Pontifical-Hierarchial Divine Liturgies. The '89 video had lots of Church Slavonic used during the liturgy and Moleben to the Sacred Heart. But then again, Archbishop Stephen Kosicko and Bishop John Bilock were still in office. You can judge for yourself the big difference from those pilgrimages to this year's Otpust.

Ung

I think you misunderstood my questions or at least their intent. I asked out of interest and not as an attempted gotcha or a passing of judgment. I know well that some priests have physical limitations that require changes. My question about the entrances was about how that variation came to be.

It is important to pray. It is also important to pray as the Church has taught us. What and how we pray in the liturgy has meaning. Adding, subtracting, or changing things matters to people just as it should. It matters that we stand up, it matters that we face East, it matters that we bow when called to.

I'm from Texas and have only been to parishes in that state and in the eparchy of Van Nuys. I asked because I simply didn't know not in an attempt to catch anyone doing something odd.

On Van Nuys... again I was asking as a matter of liturgical curiosity.

RE: Byzantine TX -- and UngCertez
Sorry, Texas, did not mean to sound like I was picking on you,or anyone for that matter.
As for Pilgrimage -- I figure I've been to at least 45 or more of the 74 Otpusts. I worked there through high school years , in the summer, helping set up altars, chairs, painting anything that didn't move, to help get things ready. I cantored the Liturgy that used to be on Saturday with the Benedictine Fathers. I've also cantored Slavonic Liturgy there, as well as for Bishop John and Archbishop Kocisko, during fraternal gatherings, and for Archbishop Procyk in Munhall, before he was a bishop. A few years ago, I was priveleged to cantor for two different diaconate ordinations here in Florida, with Bishop Pataki.
I guess, the older I get, the more the memories of those past pilgrimages mean to me. My soul is saddened, and perhaps a bit confused, at the major controversy of the past year or more. I can probably list a dozen practices from the past fifty years that are no longer in use in our churches -- I have been cantoring since the early '60's,and have had to adjust many times to changes. For the last few years, I've been learning and cantoring the "RDL" here in Florida, because my pastor and bishop asked me to. Is that the wrong thing to do?
The point I was trying to make is that we all need to keep praying. Let's have a little faith.

At my parish within the Eparchy of Van Nuys, the Deacon proclaims: "The Doors! The Doors!" We just had a new Bishop installed in April and I have not heard that he has forbidden this usage.

We do not pray orans during the Our Father.

Both entrances go completely around the nave.

Mike L.

Thanks!