www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Question about Holy Names

I have always noticed that Catholic prayers (atleast in English) are much more direct and less verbose than Orthodox prayers...one might even say that *some of them* are a bit 'dry'. As one who loves to write, I find *some* of them lacking from a stylistic point of view... (no flow of words, etc.) I often find myself wanting to rewrite some of the basic Catholic prayers, (which I otherwise do like to pray) to add some emotion!

To be fair, on the other hand, Byzantine/Orthodox prayers can sometimes be too verbose, too flowery and long.

Along this same line of comparing the use of the English language in the two great traditions of East and West, I come to something which has always made me uncomfortable. In the U.S., Catholics refer to the Virgin Mary simply as 'Mary'...as if she is simply the housemaid or the neighbor down the street. Even the present Pope (as well as his predecessor) refers to her this way in English!

In Italian, she is 'Santa Maria' or 'Holy Mary'. Why then, this almost disrespectful and plain title for Our Lady, the Mother of God? What ever happened to calling her 'Our Lady' or 'Our Blessed Mother' which I vaguely remember being the Roman Catholic norm from my childhood.

Is this change related to Vatican II in another American effort to emulate our 'plain' Protestant brethren? Couldn't she atleast be referred to as 'the Virgin Mary'?

Any thoughts?!?

In Christ our Lord,
Alice

Alice:

I think the difference in how prayers come to English comes from the avenues through which they pass on the way. Greek, as I have been given to understand, is a language given to greater expression than Latin. Latin is a more legal type of expression. When I studied classical languages--too many years ago--we were taught that Latin asked the question "what is the law?" (that is, what is the minimum) and Greek asked "what is life?"

Now that may be a stretched over-simplification but it does fit somewhat. The Latin Vulgate puts the Gospels into a bit of a strait jacket and that's why we're told that Scripture scholars have made greater use of Greek manuscripts in recent translations.

As for prayers, the genius of the Latin Church has been to weigh every word and condense. Whether that is good or bad--leading to what you refer to as "dry"--is up to the person who encounters it. It may be--this is my own speculation--that this condensed style is what has lead some people in the Latin Church to seek out New Age practices to supplement what they think they're missing.

My own preference is for Eastern style prayers because they speak to me deep inside where I live. I have had limited success using Western sources for quite some time. I have no time whatsoever for feminized language and the most recent prayerbooks available in my own Church have no Standard English versions available. The psalms, for example, clunk along for me and have no flow at all.

From my own experience, I can say that Metropolitan anthony (Bloom)'s books about prayer have been borne out. Use a prayer form in a disciplined fashion for a number of years so that when you feel "dry" you can fall back on the familiar form and not lose the habit of prayer. Then at some point the Holy Spirit will begin to work with your openness and discipline and make these familiar phrases come together in new ways to express new needs in familiar forms.

Ultimately, I believe with Metropolitan Philaret of Moscow that our prayer needs to be offered so that our prayer is actually Christ praying in and through us by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit--so that our atonement "at-one-ment" is achieved, like the two candles of the dikiri we are in communion with Christ by our prayer. I still have trouble bringing Metropolitan Philaret's prayer ending into modern English: ". . . pray Thou Thyself in me." But I see what he was reaching for.

In Christ,

BOB

PS: If it's any help, I've heard that English is "the language of heresy." French, diplomacy; Spanish, mysticism; Greek, theology. Lots of oversimplifications.

Dear Bob,

Thanks for your post.

My criticism wasn't so much for prayers, (I actually like many of them such as the Litanies, the Rosary prayers, etc.) as much as the current trend of referring the to the Blessed Virgin Mary simply as 'Mary'.

In Christ,
Alice

I've heard more traditional Western Christians refer to the Theotokos as "the Blessed Virgin Mary" (BVM in online circles), the Easterners I encounter usually call her "Mother Mary" or "Mary, Mother of God".

Most mainstream Roman Catholics, including nuns and priests, in the U.S. (as well as the Pope) refer to her as simply 'Mary'. The statue of Mary; the example of Mary, the suffering of Mary; etc., etc., etc.... I am assuming this came after Vatican II?

If you don't believe me, here is an example (read from the title through the whole article):
http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=90933

So while traditional Westerners may not call her simply 'Mary', that is hardly significant or indicative of the majority if the Pope calls her that!

In Christ,
Alice

P.S. With all due respect, I know what Easterners call her--I am one of them, remember?!

Alice:

The post-Vatican II "reformers" that I've had experience with made it clear to us that traditional language is "out" and that we needed to "update." That being said, everyone has dropped the word "saint" when referring to the Apostles and other saints: they just use the first name as you note with the Mother of God. Traditional prayers were stripped of language that indicated that Jesus "lives and reigns" with the Father and the Holy Spirit--I guess His Kingdom is now some kind of democratic republic where we have "rights." "Our Lady" went out the window because it sounds too regal. We also have a noted lack of the words "humble" and "humbly" in prayers: one preacher told us that to bow and crape before God is not what the saved/redeemed do--I guess we have a right to march up to God's Throne and look Him in the eye like the man in the Parable of the Wedding Feast who was bound and ejected for doing just that.

It's far more than prayers and language. It's a whole attitude that used to be called arrogance but is now called normal. It shows up in body actions--acts of reverence or the lack therof; it shows up in prayers; it shows up in theological essays--one of which I had critiqued by an Orthodox friend--that claim no one can be sent to Hell if someone else "loves" that person.

Sorry to get off. This is one of my "buttons."

In Christ,

BOB

Ah yes BOB - the making it more meaningful to the man in the pew thing again , the 'I'll do it my way "

Hmmphm

Dear Bob,

Thank you for taking the time to confirm my suspicions.

This Pope is so traditional in so many ways...I hope that he will bring back some of the reverence into the Roman Catholic Church...

It is funny that you said that 'humbly' is not mentioned anywhere. In many of the prayers, I feel that the words 'humble' and'humbly' placed here and there might be all that is needed to make them more beautiful and feel more meaningful.

In Christ,
Alice

Lex orandi, lex credendi. -- Is that how the Latin expression goes?

Before Vatican II, when I was a little child in the Roman Catholic Church, we used the term Blessed Virgin Mary and we said the words during Benediction: Blessed be the name of Mary, His most pure Mother.

We prayed the rosary ... Hail Mary ... Holy Mary.

We also used "thou" and "thee" during the Hail Mary. "Blessed art thou amongst women, and Blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus." Rarely are those words printed today in prayer books.

Then came Vatican II and it seemed that with the ICEL translations, the respect for God, His Angels, and His Saints went out the door. The mystery of the Holy Mass and the Sacraments also seemed to disappear as people talked in church during services.

Suddenly we all became saints and purgatory was not mentioned any longer. In fact, I have recently received holy cards sent by Catholic missionary groups which display Jesus carrying a soul to heaven.

Let us pray that the Holy Father, the Bishop of Rome, will be able to revert to the use of the sacred language in the Divine Liturgy and kick out those so-called liturgists in the ICEL who have caused so much havoc. After all, our prayers and the way we pray do influence our beliefs.

If we mention the Holy Saints with respect, and address Our Lady the Theotokos with respect, then perhaps we will be more respectful of each other too.

In Christ,
Elizabeth

Dear Elizabeth Maria,

Thank you also for your response.


Very well said. I could not agree with you more.

In Christ,
Alice

ALICE:

It's the "Jesus, my Buddy" attitude. It's the "Jesus, my Bro" attitude.

I think that what is missed is that while I am overwhelmed with the idea that I am a son of God by adoption, I should also be like Christ, Who, Scripture says, "did not deem equality with God (the Father) to be something to be grasped at, but rather emptied Himself out, taking the form of a slave." Being thus raised, while seeing myself as I really am, ISTM, should make us all the more humble and grateful for this tremendous gift. I think that's the part that's been missed. Remember the man who walked into the Wedding Feast and stared the King down in his own palace? I think that kind of attitude has taken root. While I'm thrilled to be an adopted child in the Father's Home, I'm not about to go around acting as if I had this adoption by right instead of what it is--an act of generosity that I can't quite absorb.

In Christ,

BOB

My Joys, My Treasures,

Greetings all. As you all see this is my first post. I enjoyed reading this thread because it reminds me that exalting others such as Saints is in itself humbling to me. Yes, there is a reverence to our Saints, The Theotokos, and God, but actually speaking it in our hearts humbles us in the best way because it is of God to do so. It reminds me that I am not a Saint - not even close. To me, calling a Saint a Saint is like vernerating their icon - acknowledging their rough road to heaven. Acknowledging the grace bestowed upon them. Names are powerful as well as the reverence that goes before it. Nobody could actually go to Jesus himself(in person) and give him a "high-five" and say "thanks buddy, you are cool guy".


Peace be with you all,
poor seraphim