www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Dukakis and the Greek Orthodox Church

Dear Father Stephanos,

I was just making an assumption and a guess. I am not 'privy' to anything official.

The fact that the Greek Orthodox jurisdiction it is not being 'activist' in the American political arena does not mean that it does not stand against abortion with other Christians, and that it is not fighting it from within.

I do agree that it could make its stand a bit more vocal to the American landscape for the sake of solidarity, however...and that it would be the Christian thing to do.

Respectfully,
Alice

We have an obligation to take our faith and transform society through it. It would be hard to read the Pauline Epistles and not get that impression in my opinion. To vacate the public/political arena of our world leaves it to be shaped and dominated by alternate systems of belief or ethics; and it is equally possible that once the public arena changes, the inner sphere of the church will be affected as well.

Faith in a corner, and a purely private affair, is exactly where the secular world seeks to create. When we accept that idea, we've capitulated to a large degree.

Joe,

You said you were against abortion except in cases where it threatens the life of the mother. If I may ask, I thought that the Orthodox Churches, like the Catholic Church, believed abortion to be immoral in all cases, including those that threaten the life of the mother? Was I mistaken?

Alexis

The idea of Orthodoxy being monastic to the point of excluding Christian activism, and of Catholicism being Christian activist to the point of excluding monasticism, doesn't make a lot of sense to me, I have to admit. PRAYING and DOING go hand in hand for the vast majority of us, cloistered monastics excluded (to some degree).

Alexis

I think there is a distinction that has to be made in this discussion. Pregnancies that pose health threats (which are not all that rare) and pregnancies that will result in the death of the mother (which are rather unusual-at least in areas with modernized health care) are different matters. In Catholic teaching, it would be impermissible to terminate a pregnancy because the mother is encountering non-fatal health problems such as gestational diabetes or preeclampsia, both of which pose health threats, but can be treated without killing the unborn child. On the other hand, in a case such as a pregnant mother with uterine cancer, it is permissible to perform a hysterectomy in order to save the life of the mother. Of course, the unfortunate result is the death of the unborn child. However, Catholic moral theology views this not as an abortion, but as a hysterectomy-the death of the child is a tragic consequence of a procedure that is necessary to save the life of the mother. Another similar example is that of a tubal pregnancy.

Ryan

Dear Alice,

Hold the phone.

"Serge" is the pen name of "The Young Fogey". That is how he signs his posts at his own notable and quotable blog - anyone who doesn't read it, should. See here: A Conservative Blog For Peace [sergesblog.blogspot.com] (http://sergesblog.blogspot.com/) He is the one whose comments I was defending. He is the one who I quoted. Further, he is Orthodox, he is not a priest, and he is the one I was referrng to.

Irony of ironies, The Young Fogey(/"Serge") was insinuated to be an "uncharitable Catholic" ("The self righteousness with which some Catholics promote their rigid anti-contraception doctrine") and when I cleared that up, I am the one ending up with the black eye as it is now being assumed I was speaking of or about the venerable Apostle of Byzantium to Erie.



If I meant Father Serge Keleher (I did not) I would have referred to Father Serge as such. I think I have the track record to demonstrate that.

RE:

See above.

I will not use the term "cotton pickin'" again, but I really and truly disagree with your assessment of it. That is all I have to say about that.

-Simple

My grandfather's grandmother, standing at 4'11'', was renowned all over West Georgia for being able to pick cotton at a rate far outpacing everyone in this region, including all of the sharecroppers who worked on my great-grandparents' "farm" (it was around 1,000 acres, so I don't know if that counts as a farm).

Alexis

The idea that Orthodoxy is more monastic than Catholicism is, quite frankly, false. AT PRESENT this may be so -- I acknowledge that -- but historically (that is, prior to 1965), the Catholic Church had a much more thriving monastic life than Orthodoxy.

Even today, despite the near-collapse of the monastic orders, the Catholic Church still has more monks and cloistered nuns than the Orthodox Church. While it is true that standards have fallen very low in a large number of these monasteries and that the Benedictines and Trappists have largely abandoned their own ideals and heritage (e.g. abandonment by most Benedictines of the Benedictine Office if not of the weekly psalter, etc.), I believe that this is just a temporary episode.

Well the real test would be a ratio of monks and cloistered nuns to number of believers, rather than sheer numbers. The Catholic Church claims around four times more adherents than the Orthodox Churches.

Alexis

Dear AsianPilgrim,

I am sorry, but I think that you misunderstood. I inferred that Orthodoxy is more monastic in its ethos and focus...

Regards,
Alice

The information on their website shows that neither Church (Catholic or Orthodox) in the United States is all that healthy when it comes to moral issues.

At the risk of getting the discussion back on track, I recall a Greek Orthodox bishop taking note of Dukakis' marriage and support for abortion. It's been 20 years, so I forget which one it was. But for the most part, the Greeks were just happy to see "one of their own" get that far.

Abortion is one of the only election issues specifically addressed for 2,000 years of unbroken Church history. Tens of millions have perished in the United states alone as a result of it. It deserves a tighter control of one's vote than whether a candidate will increase the minimum wage by $1.15 over 20 years....

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Western Orthodoxy Blog [westernorthodox.blogspot.com]

There's nothing wrong with the Greeks being proud of one of their own going far but...

... I'm reminded of the Agnews of Baltimore. Immigrant Theodore, Spiro's father, left Orthodoxy and became an Episcopalian before Spiro was born but was still well-liked by the Greek community because he was successful. They were mainline but didn't claim to be Orthodox. Whatever ethical problems Spiro Agnew had, his generation still had some integrity on those matters. BTW, AFAIK he was like many Episcopalians publicly indifferent about religion.

There is a place for the secular, that is, religiously neutral not anti-religious, and politics in America should be secular. That said I agree with AMM that pols and other celebrities like Dukakis who were/are Orthodox or Roman Catholic in name but really mainline in their approach to these things (like being pro-abortion) are not good role models.

I believe Spiro's son became Orthodox later.

Fr. Serge