www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall due dignity

I'd like to mention something I've noted for a while has been more the norm than the exception in some blog circles. If I like the hierarch he deserves use of his title(s), but if I disagree with one or all of his beliefs or appellations then I can do away with his position. It's sort of a personal interpretation of scripture mentality tunneled into Church politics.

Here is a latest example. On a post asking "Does Ratzinger understand 1 Cor 3?" I commented:


I acknowledge I kind of asked for it, but wonder about this sort of mentality. Am I alone in being irked?

Byzantine TX:

You’re not alone in being irked by this type of mentality and attitude expressed in disrespect—written, oral, and nonverbal. I think it comes from four areas.

First, there is the 1960s attitude toward authority that is “anti” anyone and any office. That attitude has been around now for at least two generations and most probably a third. It seeks to level everyone and is a respecter neither of persons nor offices. It began in politics because of the widespread antipathy toward the Vietnam War and spread throughout society to everyone and everything.

Second, there is a new crop of people who have never been taught the rudiments of societal etiquette. Reminds me of the Parable of the Wedding Feast and the man who stared down the King in his own palace. We have the idea that the courtesies that grease the social situation are somehow unnecessary unless we happen to agree with them or the person to whom they are addressed. And then it’s only our own group and as long as we like the person to whom these courtesies are extended. You illustrate this second area well with your pasted quotes. We do, in this country, extend the courtesies to those in other religious institutions and organizations that are extended by their own members. However, we do need to acknowledge that with the number of believers of all stripes dipping below the 40% mark in the United States, it’s small wonder that not being taught and not having direct contact with anyone in my own group to whom I extend any courtesy translates into not being aware that courtesies should be extended to another group’s leaders or doing so. It used to be considered poor upbringing not to extend such courtesies and a poor reflection on one’s parents. Sadly not so in this day.

Third, there is the person who occupies an office to which respect is due and who works hard to be “the nice guy,” or “one of the boys.” I see this in churches where the clergy have little private laughs with the servers or the marital couple or the godparents at a Baptism. They think that by trying to put everyone at ease with these little maneuvers they have done a good thing. What in reality they have done is to signal nonverbally that the thing they are doing is not serious and, by extension, they (and their office) are not to be taken seriously. And they get what they ask for—people don’t take them seriously. They wonder why there is no respect for clergy. Similar things permeate other offices in our society.

Finally, there is just a general level of disrespect for people, offices, and institutions brought on the many falls from grace by politicians, clergy, teachers, and almost everyone else in authority. There isn’t a day that goes by that someone in authority is caught disrespecting his office by some ethical or illegal action reported in the news. This just all contributes to the general societal tone that you mention.

I get this in my field every day. Someone always wants to second-guess what is technically possible in my field. Someone always knows what he did 20 years ago when he put his mother into a nursing home and refuses to believe that regulations have changed. Someone always is angry that one's next-of-kin could override one's funeral arrangements--especially when the one making them is trying to make a post-death slap at perceived slights by one's next-of-kin. I laugh when attorneys call to ask me questions about the intricacies of things like Medicaid applications and then publicly say that funeral directors don't know a lot.

Forgive me my long vent tonight. Your original thought is on target IMHO--maybe not so HO.

BOB

"That is deeply offensive, not to mention idolatry."

I have seen some Protestant Evangelicals speak like this. I take it this person is Orthodox?

Terry

He is Orthodox.

Well, if he does not want to argue the point or listen to how Roman Catholics would understand "Vicar of Christ," then his intentions are not fruitful or charitable. I have known some people like him who always try to goad people into offense. I see them on the road.

I once smiled and waved at someone who flicked me off and they drove off in a fury. They seemed to be hoping that I would flick them off too or show anger to them. I think that type of person can bring the same attitude to the Internet.

Terry

This guy has an axe to grind. Many of my EO friends avoid that blog at all costs. An Orthodox subdeacon friend of mine said their tones sound like schoolyard taunts.

That last line is a treasure. I plan to use it somewhere somehow.

Over the years I have sensed a pattern online which leads me to issue these warnings to all Catholics on the internet far and wide:

--BEWARE of Orthodox posters who have taken the name Photius!
--Enter in conversation at your own risk!!

Alice

Saint Photius - may he pray for us - is not the only Saint in the calendar who could do without some of his admirers! I had an excellent Professor who was fond of commenting that if one could suffer in Heaven, Saint Thomas Aquinas would be tortured by his alleged followers. I'm not a Thomist, but I can easily grasp the point.

Saint Photius of Constantinople, we should note, had an excellent sense of humor.

However, a couple of years ago we had a poster on the Forum, named or at least yclept Photius, who made some valuable contributions - I still miss him.

Fr. Serge

I think I will change my name to pseudo-Maximos Gregory Leo Innocent Boniface.


Beware!

That is priceless! :)Poor St Photius

I know the other guy on the blog and he helped me start questioning Sola Sciptura during a late night dinner at Dennys. Anyways when I decided to become a Catholic he said" Well you are no brain surgeon."

I am really glad I have such wonderful Orthodox friends who don't say such silly things.

My mind is twisting and flopping . . by the originally expressed logic, such persons should be fine with Catholics dropping the honorific St. from their namesakes . . . but then, how many of them are aware of St. Photius' status with Rome at the end of hiss life.

And then it all twists back upon itself.

And they remain convinced that such juvenile disrespect is an effective rhetorical device?

*sigh*

hawk

When one takes a Saint's name, one is nevertheless not to style oneself "Saint" Whatever! This also applies to the spiritual children of Saint Photius. We hope and pray that they may live up to the Saint whose name honours them.

Fr. Serge

The only exception of sorts being "St. John" common-ish in France and England.

Heaven Forbid, Father.

But given St. Photius' reconciliation with Rome, the whole thing doesn't make sense . . .

hawk