www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization The Customs of Greeting: Making Visitors Welcome

Slava Isusu Christu! (Glory be to Jesus Christ!)
Slava na Viki! (Glory be Forever!)

speaking of abandoned or discouraged BC customs, how about the customs of the greetings, an example of which anyone can find directly above these words? I recently went to a church in a town near my hometown. I had never been to this Byz. Ruthenian church before, even though it is only about twenty miles or so from where I grew up. (I was back home, visiting.) There were many people in church my age or several years older. I gave the traditional greeting that I typed above to just about everyone I saw---and virtually everyone looked at me as if I were speaking Martian. I sang lustily during the DL--the older version, not the new book even though it was sitting in the pews, unused--and even sang in old slavonic a few times. "Svat, svat, svat...Svate Boze..." I have no shame and don't care if people hear me singing in slavonic when they are singing in english. Not one person came up to me at the end of the liturgy to say hello. Not one. I guess being nice to fellow byzantines has also been abandoned or discouraged, I don't know. The priest didn't even say hello to me, even though I was parked directly in front of him in the parking lot. I nodded and said "Good afternoon." He looked at me, opened his BMW and drove away as fast as he could. Only one person (a member of the choir) gave me the traditional response after the liturgy when I gave the greeting "Glory be to Jesus Christ." But even she didn't stop to say anything else. Just kept on going.

Call me strange, but I would have thought if someone showed up at a DL who is obviously a fellow Byzantine Ruthenian, knows the language as well as the liturgy by heart (remember--the green books were in the pews but no one used them and we sang the older liturgy) and is outgoing and friendly--I would have thought someone would say "hi" and offered to shake hands and welcome that person like a long lost brother. Which he basically is. I know I would, if that kind of person came to my church. But not a single person was friendly, including the priest. Actually, he is a Monsignor. And the beamer was a real beaut, too. It had a great wax job.

If we are talking about abandoned or discouraged customs, friendliness might be at the top of the list, above kneeling, beating one's breast or anything else. Maybe that's another reason the BC church is in trouble. People were leaving the parking lot as if it were the Indy 500. Why take the time to say hello to a stranger? Why take the time to get to know them--and maybe invite them back? Maybe that's an old fashioned thing as well. But then, I'm an old fashioned kind of guy.

Any thoughts?

Tim

I hesitate to comment for fear of being "re-threaded," but for every Byzantine (Melkite or Ruthenian) parish I have been to that was welcoming another treated me like the main character from The Sixth Sense. When that happens I follow my trip up with an email to the parish. Usually they are apologetic... sometimes the email goes unanswered. As someone from a very pro-visitor (we have people who look out for new people and sit next to them throughout the liturgy to help out) this Nash-test seems counterproductive to me.

I am not a Ruthenian (agus buichais mor le Dia!) but I still remember, almost fifty years ago, attending the Christmas Eve service in a Ruthenian parish rather a distance from where I was living at the time, so that it was expensive (I had to use taxis) and time-consuming to get there and to get home again. I brought along Grigassy's booklet for the Christmas Eve service (which required a magnifying glass) and managed to follow the service. The closest anyone came to greeting me was one woman who looked at me and remarked "I never saw you in Church before"! Is this how to make someone welcome? On Christmas Eve? Words failed me, so I in turn failed to make the sort of response I might have wanted to, which is just as well.

"O come, all ye faithful" - provided that you have the right bloodlines (meaning that you are a direct descendant of one of the founders of the parish, who gave lots of money), and that your behavior is politically correct and manifests that you are interested, but not overly interested, in the service taking place.

Reminds me of a mythical sign often reported to have been seen here and there: "These premises are the property of the Little Sisters of Charity and Christian Love. Trespassers will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law!"

Fr. Serge

Plain and simple, they're still caught up in their ethnicity. I sat at a church function recently, and had a man in his 60s talk about what nationality we were. From my last name you couldn't tell that I'm almost completely Rusyn -- though I didn't feel that it warranted explaining because it was none of his business.

Sadly, I believe a whole generation will have to go to their Eternal Reward before we grow as a church and the ethnicity is allowed to slip away.

To those who think only Rusyns should be in our Byzantine Churches -- join the C-RS if you want an ethnic club -- church is open to everyone.

So Stephanie, are you ashamed of being Rusyn? I'm not! Rusyns built the BCC, but that should all be cast aside? Obviously you are another advocate of no ethnic ties in the BCC. Plenty of people left in the BCC are proud of their Rusyn heritage and it's so sad that people from the hierarchy on down only want an "American" BCC. Vatras and other Rusyn get togethers are fine, but lets chuck our ethnicity at the church door? I don't think so!

I'm fighting this same issue in my OCA parish. The majority don't want Slavonic, etc, etc.

The Serbs, Ukrainians, Romanians, Greeks, et al, are proud of their heritage. What's the shame in being Rusyn?

Слава Ісусу Христу!

The old generic ethnic scapegoat complaint. No one talks to you then when they do using ethnicity as a common denominator you are upset. You think substituting Christmas kutya (honey & grain cereal) with plum pudding, Pascal foods with confectionaries in your Easter baskets and decorating your icon corner with Steeler terrible towels instead of rushnyks (ritual cloths) will sustain your domestic (kitchen) church? What do you think kept the faith alive and taught the next generation during the Soviet persecutions?

What specific ethnic custom(s) is embarrassing?

I'm proud of being Rusyn. I have a sticker on my car, I'm involved with the C-RS, my kids dance in a Rusyn dance group -- there's no one prouder than me. But, we can't ask the newcomers at our churches what nationality they are or ethnicity. It's a turn off. And I know it wouldn't make me feel welcome.

I never said anything about losing Slavonic. That's part of our church, why would we get rid of it?

Embrace your culture, what ever it is, but by all means don't let it limit our churches.

Here's an interesting link on ethnicity from the orthodox church....
What's Wrong with Ethnicity? [orthodoxresearchinstitute.org]

What specific ethnic custom(s) is embarrassing?

Mykhayl, you're off in left field with my post. I never said any custom was embarrassing. I embrace them all, sadly, the Christmas Eve meal too. (Though everyone in my family is ready for a nap before Liturgy).

You should probably not make assumptions or read into a post before responding. My post focused on church and asking newcomers what nationality they are, or ethnicity. And almost making it a prerequisite for attending liturgy.

Believe me, I worked in a church office and this stuff goes on all the time. You're kidding yourself if you don't believe it. It's sad.

Here's a useful rule of thumb: it's probably better not to ask people what nationality or ethnic identification(s) they have. Be patient, and they may very well volunteer the information.

As to "what specific ethnic custom is embarrassing", that really depends on what ethnic group one is asking about. There are some very old Irish customs which have (happily) passed out of use but if used again would be excruciatingly embarrassing! And so on.

Come to think of it, almost any "local custom" can shock somebody else, somewhere. Here's an example (with names deleted) that came to my attention recently:

a family of Chaldean Catholics had already been living in Detroit for about two generations. With all the woes of Iraq, they kindly invited some relatives of theirs to move to Detroit, where they found them housing, employment for the adults, schools for the children, and so forth. One of the girls of the "indigenous Detroit" family was off at university while this was going on, so her brother proudly showed his newly-arrived cousins a lovely photograph of his sister, dancing with her boy friend at their graduation. Imagine the brother's response when the newly-arrived cousins shouted unanimously 'SHE IS A WHORE!"

What led to this unwelcome acclamation was that the picture, in showing the sister dancing with her boy friend, portrayed allowing a man not her husband to touch her!

Fortunately the Detroit parents heard this, and stepped in before any violence erupted. They then explained the cultural differences involved, and that since the new arrivals were now living in Detroit and not in Mosul, they had better be cautious about jumping to such conclusions, particularly conclusions which would cause immediate and serious trouble. They apologized, but no doubt still think that Detroit is gravely immoral (Detroit may indeed be gravely immoral, but not particularly because of commencement exercises at high school!).

Fr. Serge

I'm in full agreement with Etnick and Mykhayl on this issue, and I recently had a heartwarming experience at my UGCC parish worth repeating. At a banquet earlier this month, an elderly woman came up to me and introduced herself, and then mentioned that she always sees me at the 2nd liturgy (Ukrainian) and that I seem to come to every activity the church has. After about 15 minutes of chatting with her, she became pleasantly shocked when I informed her, that not only was I a Roman Catholic, but also that I was not Ukrainian. A short time later she had to go over and tell a couple of her lady friends in Ukrainian the discovery she had just made. To her the biggest surprise of all was the fact that I didn't attend the English liturgy, which had to mean automatically that I was Ukrainian. Now she's comes over to talk to me each Sunday since the banquet.

Another incident worth repeating happened this Summer, when a long time parishoner told me over beers, that he'd like to see us eliminate the Ukrainian liturgy and replace it with Church Slavonic. Naturally I had to top that, and so my reply was "Let's keep the Ukrainian liturgy and eliminate the English one"

Слава Ісусу Христу!

Stephany Kotyuh,

Thank you for the link on 1st century ethnicity. It was well written but evasive even when speaking of contemporary situations of what “ethnicity” is. It never defined if ethnicity was; language, cuisine, culture, customs, perspective, values, perception, community, local etc. Probably many Baptists would say the 1st century problem was circumcision while others will say it still is male chauvinism. Many will tell you in their parish the “Ukrainian” Liturgy is attended by the American raised while the “real” Ukrainians go to the English one. It’s too bad “half na peev” (and half) is not politically correct, according to most clerics who decide these theological quandaries I’ve spoken with.

We shouldn’t review elusive ideas. Please be specific what the problem and the parameters so we can understand your view and look at it objectively together.

Mykhayl

I didn't mean to start a free for all, sorry! I probably didn't write the post properly, since what really bothered me the most was the fact that when I spoke in English or Slavonic, the response was the same--as one person said, it was as if I was the main character in the movie "The Sixth Sense." That's just plain rude. In any language. And in no language, when I looked the Monsignor in the eye, nodded my head and he didn't even respond! That has nothing to do with ethnicity. It has to do with people who are simply rude. They would never teach their children (or grandchildren, in this case) to do that. But they do it themselves. Why? I wish I knew.

After saying the Slavonic greeting three or four times and getting a blank look, I switched to English. Same response. How does ethnicity fit into that? Same church, different people, different language--same reaction. Rudeness. How do we grow as a church when the priest can't even look a visitor in the eye and acknowledge that the person was there? Wether I participated in the liturgy or not. Roman Catholic, Ruthenian, Lutheran...it doesn't matter. I've been to Methodist and Lutheran services where I had the same reaction when I said (in English) "Hi, my name's Tim. Beautiful morning, isn't it?" They don't know my ethnicity. Only that I am not a part of "their church." I'm a stranger. Therefore I'm someone to be shunned. Maybe it's my looks, who knows?

I'm Rusyn on both sides and can trace that heritage back centuries. I'm very proud of who I am. I'm a member of C-RS. I am teaching my son as much as I can about our heritage. But none of that matters when the priest won't even look me in the eye, or the person who is the greeter at the Lutheran service doesn't care a new person is there--or why they are there. Rudeness crosses all ethnic and religious lines. It's a problem with society as a whole. But seeing it for what it is (and not blaming it on ethnicity) is a chance for the BCC to grow while others don't. We need to reach out to everyone, regardless of ethnicity. But that doesn't mean we should forget our heritage or the sacrifices made by our ancestors. We should be proud of what they did, not sweep it under the carpet. Let's explain to others who might be interested in our faith what our ancestor's did. That's a plus, in my opinion. For someone to believe so strongly in their religion that our ancestor's would do what they did--it's impressive. Especially to someone who doesn't know about it. Let's use it as a drawing card to engage potential members, not as an embarrassment to be eliminated at the church door. Heaven forbid a religion founded on the Slavonic language should use that language! I know about using vernacular and I agree. We should NOT do all liturgies in all Slavonic. That would turn people away. But a bit thrown in, with an explanation of why we do it. That is interesting, as is the vestments worn by the priests and deacons. Or should we drop the vestments and the iconostasis as well? Where is the line drawn?

I hope I haven't misinterpreted what anyone has said. I apologize if I did. And I apologize for the long post.

S'nami Boh!

Tim

Here's one for the books: in a certain church in Pennsylvania, one of the babas greeted the priest after the Divine Liturgy with "Slava Isusu Khrystu", as babas are wont to do. The priest made no attempt to conceal his irritation, and said that "This is America. Good morning!"

He was transferred to California before nightfall. That particular parish was volatile.

Fr. Serge

Father, Bless,

And God bless that parish! I wish there were more like them! Keep the stories coming, Father!

In all seriousness, I have asked this question before and never have gotten an answer: where do we draw the line in regards to getting rid of our ethnicity? And this is a serious subject and maybe should be a new thread.

I understand that we have to move ahead and can't do Liturgies in Old Slavonic all the time. I don't want that. A few Slavonic prayers wouldn't hurt any Liturgy. Even one Liturgy a month with only a few prayers would be fine. But if we give up our ethnicity, exactly what are we giving up? I just returned from my church's Liturgy. Several of the parishioners are from Roman Catholic parishes who love the BCC Liturgy. They like the way the priest goes in and out of the doors of the iconostasis. They like the incense and the traditions. That's why they officially transferred from the Roman churches they were attending to our church. If we give up our ethnicity--does that mean changing vestments? Does it mean getting rid of the iconostasis? We don't lock the doors to keep out the non-baptised anymore. So we have moved ahead in at least one area. Does getting rid of ethnicity mean getting rid of those special, little services, such as the one we did tonight for someone who is having surgery? The story of the Good Samaritan is read and at the end everyone in the congregation touches the person who is getting the special anointing. One of the transferred Romans said they would never have done that special anointing service at her old church. Her exact words were that it would have been seen as "too archaic and medieval."

Where does "ethnicity" end? I'm not trying to be facetious or anything. I'm totally serious. What do we give up and what do we keep? I would love to hear some answers from those who want to keep ethnicity out of the church. Keep it American. Please, I will not make fun of any answers or viewpoints, I will treat them seriously and with respect. What are the things that are keeping people away and what are the things that attract people? We need to know if we are to grow in this new century. Do we have to wait until a generation passes on before we can move ahead, as one other poster mentioned?

Tim

Mykhayl, you really need to re-read my post again. No where did I say I had a problem with our customs. What we do in church is one thing, and at home another.

My post specifically said we should not ask newcomers what their ethnicity is, nor imply that being Rusyn is a prerequisite to joining a Ruthenian parish. This happens too much, and I've been on the receiving end because of my last name. When I explain that I am almost 100% Rusyn, they almost give a sigh of relief.

For anyone out there who doesn't know this, our church will only grow by allowing other ethnicities in. Look around, our children are not marrying other Rusyns, they are marrying Italians, Germans, the Irish ...the list goes on. The more we focus on the ethnicity, the more painful the process of growing our church will be.

In Cleveland, there's one beautiful church called St. Casmir's. It's a "Polish" Church. They're slated to close, and to merge with another. Suddenly, they're evangelizing to the folks in the church neighborhood. Why??? They've seen the light -- but it may be too late. I don't want our churches in these same scenarios, do you?

I love my Byzantine Church too much to focus solely on the ethnicity that helped bring it here to the United States. Will I always be Rusyn....yes, but if things keep going like they are, I might not always be Byzantine. It's time to take the blinders off.

P.S. If you weren't in Cleveland for tonight's Rusyn Vatra, you missed a great time!