www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Greece legalises cremation

I wonder about this story. Sometimes things like this sound like the 19th century stories of people being buried alive.

I've witnessed cremations in my professional capacity and have never seen anything remotely like this.

Cremation occurs at a temp of between 1800 and 2200 degrees F. It happens so fast that the remains seems to "evaporate" like an ice cube on a hot sidewalk in July. The temperature is so high that if, in fact, the door had been opened no one in the room would have survived to tell the story because the intense heat is enough to seal the lungs of anyone taking a breath in the room at the time. That's why retorts have a locking mechanism much like our self-cleaning ovens. Once they get beyond a certain temp, they can't be oepned.

BOB

Father Serge:

Father bless!!

With all due respect, what should they be termed?

They're not "ash." They're bone fragments and bone dust.

Maybe it's the dynamic of the English language to fuse two words "cremated remains."

BOB

ALEXIS:

What would we do with them? And what of the health hazards for those who do this?

I've been to disinterments, and as the above poster stated, it isn't pretty. It's usually nasty and something one never forgets.

BOB

Well, although I meant what I said, I was also gently assuring Alice that I didn't mean to jump on her, if she perceived me to be one of the "male aggressors."

If it works in Greece, I don't see why it wouldn't work here, though I admit I haven't thought that out.

Alexis

"Ashes" has been the normal term for a long time. It may not be strictly accurate, but strict accuracy is not always required for such expressions. Consider this example:

I have the honor to remain, my dear Sir, your humble and obedient servant,

Fr. Serge

Well, I was just recounting what my distant relative told me. Must have been muddled through the years (this was recounted to me more than a decade ago) or (most certainly) there was exaggeration and much inaccuracy in the story.

However, the rest of my post was based on my personal experiences. And crematoria personnel have also told me about the "standing up" of the corpse. I don't know where or how they observed that.

Incidentally, there are antiquated crematoria in the Philippines, and based on the descriptions in this thread, I am pretty sure that US crematoria have higher and better standards. My father was cremated in an old oven (no longer used today), and from what I remember seeing and smelling that day, it did not burn as well and as rapidly as the crematoria that you use there the USA. The stench was horrible: I can't forget it, as the fumes went through the funeral chapel adjacent to the crematoria.

A Chinese had been cremated prior to my father and I vividly remember seeing his cremation pan behind the crematorium: it was full of charred bits of paper or wood (he was burned with all sorts of paper palaces, paper cars, etc.), bones, and even some teeth (and that was AFTER most of the cremains had been removed). That tells me, at the very least, that the cremation was not as intense and as thorough as to what you might be accustomed to.

I'm just recounting here what I actually saw. I leave it to you to interpret the raw data. Remember that I'm not in the USA, ao we might be dealing with different machinery, etc. here

asianpilgrim:
Our crematory retorts aren't high enough for any remains to "stand up." They're slightly larger than a mausoleum chamber--large enough for a container or body to enter but not large enough to stand erect in. In fact, I attended a seminar on safety in the field and a worker who actually enters a retort to work on the interior must have a fellow worker present outside to pull him back out in the event his safety is compromised for any reason. In other words, one has to go in on one's hands and knees. (I have claustrophobia from an event in my childhood and wouldn't enter one to work on it for all the money needed for the bailout.)

That being said, what remains after cremation is a complete skeleton that must be "processed"--a polite way of saying it needs to be reduced to the size necessary to be placed into small spaces--like temporary or permanent urns that are usually about 200 cubic inches in inside measurement.

Actually though cremation happens as quickly as I described, it isn't what I would recommend the average person watch. It does leave a rather permanent impression on one's memory.

BOB

Dear Bob,

It is obvious that you are a deeply religious and spiritual man.

In your experience, would you say that most men in the funeral business are religious/spiritual men?

I ask because, in your industry, one is faced with the grim realities of our existence on a daily basis.

Many monks in Orthodoxy have kept coffins and dirt in their view to remind themselves of death and eternity...and for those who don't, there are always the ossuaries (you had asked in a previous post where one would keep skeletal remains) in Greek monasteries with the skulls of deceased monastics to remind them.

I look forward to your opinion on the spiritual state of those working in the American funeral industry.

In Christ,
Alice

Anyone interested in what an ossuary is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossuary

ALICE:

Christ is in our midst!! He is and always will be!!

What I propose for your consideration is strictly my own observations based on 42+ years of observation. It may or may not fit anyone's critique. It may be over-stated.

But here it is.

To work in this field every day, to face death every day, to stand on the edge of the grave--literally and figuratively--every day, to face one's own mortality, to work with grief-stricken people every day--who often take their anger out on the funeral director makes a man (or woman) IMHO navigate toward one of three coping mechnisms--or life patterns, if you will.

1. The substance abuser. This is the one who is an alcoholic or drug user. It dulls the pain and blurs the reality in which one works.

2. The shallow personality. This is the one who always has a joke or inappropriate comment to make to families at all the wrong times. This is the one people remember when they criticise our profession. This is the guy (or gal) you love to hate. This is the one referred to as "Digger O'Dell," "your friendly undertaker," "the last one to let you down."

3. The man or woman of faith. This person steps back, contemplates what it is he is facing, digs deep within and finds himself without answers, and who seeks answers through asking for a faith gift to help him cope. This is the one who prays. This is the one people really seek out when the word is out that there is someone who really is genuine enough to admit he is lost in the face of the greatest mystery mankind has ever had to face. This is the guy or gal who admits that he feels less adequate as he ages and spends more years facing this mystery, trying to find an answer for himself and others. This is the guy or gal who listens to the expressions of others who also try to make sense out of this thing called death.

I must admit that after the many years I have faced this mystery, have walked with people through the death of a loved one--cried with them, comforted them, supported them--have faced my own limitations and mortality in various life situations, I feel that I know and have less to offer than when I was young and so sure of myself. The only answer I have is Jesus Christ. He is my answer. Like love, charity, mercy, and the other virtues, He is the answer to death. The answer arises from and is His Person. He went through the Veil and came back. His experience with this tells me that death is not something to fear; He is in charge on this side and on the other side. He reminds me that no student is greater than His Teacher or servant is greater than His Master. If I want to be like Him, to share with Him, I've got to face down this mystery and do one thing that everyone of us has trouble with: trust Him completely, absolutely.

I related some time ago my own conversion experience at the age of five. I haven't waivered from asking for the gift of faith and in the Faith. I pick myself and my cross up and follow. It has been an exciting journey. I've worked with all kinds of people and have found as many reactions. I get into places and with people that clergy would never get into. I have the chance to witness by example as well as word. I open myself each morning with prayer and ask to be used as an instrument. I ask that no opinion of my own come out but that my limited understanding be authentically what the Church has taught in all ages. May I never poison another soul with some ill-conceived notion of my own.

Does that sound reasonable?

Probably not, just the ramblings of some nut case.

In Christ,

BOB

Interesting. Thank you for your post.

Most of the Greek Orthodox funerals I have been to have been at Greek Orthodox owned or Catholic owned funeral homes. I have always considered the persons working there as very serious, respectful, polite, and sympathetic to guests...(and families, as the case would be). A nice gesture in my area is the laminated icon cards available at the wakes (both Catholic and Orthodox--one even had a photo of Pope JP II instead of an icon), with a prayer on the back side and the name of the deceased and the day of his death. Has anyone else in other parts of the country seen these?

Orthodox and Catholics are still close to the formalities of their ethnic roots in the New York area, so perhaps that is why there is a difference in much of what you have shared at different times, with what I have seen.

Anyway, God bless you, and those who have worked with you have not worked with a 'nut case' but with someone who is most surely a blessing to them at a difficult time.

In Christ,
Alice

Most Catholic funerals I have been to have the holy cards. Sometimes the funeral has them and will print them up. Sometimes the family does it themselves. I went to one for a 20 year old Byzantine Catholic young man(Killed in a drive-by, He was an innocent victim) and they had cards that were eastern due to the fact the home was near an Orthodox church. In California that isn't as common for a home to have the eastern options.

If anyone would car to please say a prayer for Martin. He was a venerator of St George.