www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Pope to Patriarch: We need unity faster

Shlom lokh

Something makes me think that you do not understand the Catholic teaching on Papal Infallibility. You seem to be viewing it through "Orthodox glasses," which for one reason or another misunderstand completely what it means and what it does not.

I continually pray for unity everyday and I love what the Melkite Patriarch Gregorios III said about being "cum Petro" as opposed to what Latins and some Easterns think as being "sub Petro." Don't the Orthodox view themselves as being "with the other Patriarchs?"

Alloho minokhoun,
Andrew

Then we should stop wasting our time with all this bogus talk of unity cause it ain't gonna happen. We will never abandon the Orthodox faith.

Joe

I say this without meaning to offend anyone and with all sincerity. There will not be reunion between the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches. We have views of the Papacy that are incommensurate and neither side is going to budge. Don't misunderstand me; I am not anti-Catholic and I understand that Rome is in a position where practically they can't renounce any of the claims that they make for themselves. But we will not budge either. The Pope is not infallible. The Pope does not have jurisdiction over any Church but the Church of Rome. This is Orthodoxy and we will not change.

Joe

Never stop praying for unity, never give up hope for a reunion. The devil conquers by dividing us(Churches) then picking us off one at a time.

Are you sure? Do you speak for all Orthodox Churches when you say "we"? Again, you speak as if you have absolute authority over all the Orthodox Churches yourself. Who speaks for Orthodoxy? Is the Petrine office the same as the rest of the Patriarchs and Bishops? I believe scripture and tradition suggests otherwise. Are you sure none of the Patriarchs of the East would not be interested in being in communion with the Papacy similar to the first Millenia setup. Pope Benedict seems to be headed in this direction.





In ICXC,
Mike

Perhaps the Holy Father could allow the Byzantine Catholic Churches, for example, to return to our Orthodox mother churches right away? A gesture of good will. Thus, the BCC would join ACROD under the EP. Clearly this patriarch of Rome is committed to union of east and west, so why wait any longer.

Are you suggesting that the BCC no longer wants to be in communion with the Bishop of Rome? Are the BCC and UGCC being forced to remain in communion? Do you think that unity will come faster if Byzantine rite catholics cease to exist?

Eastern Catholics choose to be in communion with Rome, and are couragous in defending both Eastern Orthodoxy and the seat of Peter!

Mike

Mike,

Do you know of a single Orthodox hierarch who would accept the doctrine of Papal primacy as understood by Rome? I know of no Orthodox theologian or hierarch who holds that the Pope has universal jurisdiction over the Church.

Joe

Shlomo John, Mike waLkhoolkhoon,

John, I agree with Mike's question to you.

Mike just to point out, that not all Eastern Catholics come from Eastern Orthodox roots, nor as of the last few years a majority. We Catholics of the Antiochene-Edessan Tradition are the largest grouping within Eastern Catholicism.

Fush BaShlomo Lkhoolkhoon,
Yuhannon

Yuhannon,

I humbly apologize for the generalization.

in ICXC,
Mike

"I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me. Father, they are your gift to me. I wish that where I am they also may be with me, that they may see my glory that you gave me, because you loved me before the foundation of the world. Righteous Father, the world also does not know you, but I know you, and they know that you sent me. I made known to them your name and I will make it known, that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in them."

John 17:20-26

I believe that the Eastern Patriarchs accepted this for the first millennium of the Church.

St. Maximus the Confessor writes:

How much more in the case of the clergy and Church of the Romans, which from old until now presides over all the churches which are under the sun? Having surely received this canonically, as well as from councils and the apostles, as from the princes of the latter (Peter and Paul), and being numbered in their company, she is subject to no writings or issues in synodical documents, on account of the eminence of her pontificate .....even as in all these things all are equally subject to her (the Church of Rome) according to sacerodotal law. And so when, without fear, but with all holy and becoming confidence, those ministers (the popes) are of the truly firmand immovable rock, that is of the most great and Apostolic Church of Rome. (in J.B. Mansi, ed. Amplissima Collectio Conciliorum, vol. 10)

John S. writes:

This is a bit startling. the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek-Catholic Diocese is certainly not the "mother church" for the Byzantine Catholics in the United States (to say nothing of Byzantine Catholics in the Middle East, in Italy, in Romania, and so on). For the umpteenth time, the Pittsburgh Metropolia has no exclusive right to the term "Byzantine" - and this bit of confusion is an excellent example of what the attempt to use it in that inaccurate way leads to.

For that matter, the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek-Catholic Diocese is certainly not the "mother church" for the Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholics in the United States either - that thesis would be chronologically absurd. The latest possible date for the founding of what is now the Pittsburgh Byzantine-Ruthenian Metropolia is the assignment and arrival of Bishop Basil (Takach), which was well over ten years before the founding of the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek-Catholic Diocese. It is rather difficult for the child to be ten years older than the mother!

But to the real point at issue: Pope Benedict XVI, may the Lord preserve him and give him life, and make him blessed upon the earth, and deliver him not to the will of his enemies, is not holding on to any Byzantine Catholics by some sort of force. Individuals, families, or other groups who might wish to become Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglicans, Unitarians, Buddhists, or whatever are free to do so without the Pope sending a fleet of two Cardinals and an acolyte in a rowboat to make war on them.

Greek-Catholics are Greek-Catholics for the simplest of reasons: we believe that this is a good idea, and we like being Greek-Catholics. Nobody is pointing a gun at me, or threatening to send me to Siberia. Nor am I making threats at anyone - other than the "threat" that I might produce data of various kinds which should be taken into account. There are, for example, some fascinating passages in the Orthodox editions of the service-books. But that is for another day.

Fr. Serge

Well said, and with Father's excellent wit as well!

Maybe it is time that those who think otherwise come to terms with this.

Alice

----

Greetings Yuhannon.

Yes the Eastern Catholic Churches have various origins. Knowing how dedicated to unity Pope Benedict is and how scandalous it is to have the body of Christ torn in two, I wondered how we might start to make reunion happen.

In Christ,

John

Greetings Mike.

I am no expert, but a bit better read on the Carpatho-Rusyn side of things than on the Ukrainian end. But, let me take a crack at it.

First, let's bear in mind that the Carpathian Reunion was mainly for political protection. It certainly wasn't a movement to the realm of papal primacy and universal jurisdiction on the merits of those doctrines. The average churchgoer likely didn't understand that their jurisdiction had even changed for some time.

Of course no one is forced to remain in communion with Rome, not the BCC or the UGCC.

"Do you think that unity will come faster if Byzantine rite catholics cease to exist?"

This is a great question, Mike, ... and one that I've been contemplating. My answer is perhaps. It doesn't seem that we have a seat at the table in any of the talks. It is the parents -- Rome and the Orthodox who talk about us. We often say that we are a bridge. Well ok, how well is the bridge holding up after several hundred years? I think our existence is still a bitter pill for the Orthodox and for very good reasons.

On the surface the RCC and the OC seem quite similar in many ways -- both are rooted in a sacramental worldview. Some of the BCC churches are even very Orthodox in praxis (St. Elias in Brampton and Annunciation in Homer Glen are two). Praxis aside, per the Orthodox, the theology of these sister Churches is now very different. Ultimately, theology stands between reunion. So scratch the surface and we see a different theology underlying the two Churches. Many on the RCC side would say the theology is not too different. Some would even posit that it is complementary. But the Orthodox do seem to see a difference under girding the Churches.

"Eastern Catholics choose to be in communion with Rome, and are courageous in defending both Eastern Orthodoxy and the seat of Peter!"

Yes, true. Defending two ecclesiologies is not easy and a cross to bear for sure.

Again, the Holy Father is an excellent theologian and seems to have moved reunion to the front burner. I am merely asking how the BCC (for example) might help the Holy Father's noble and urgent cause.

John