www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Blanket Permission for Byzantine (Old) Divine Liturgy?

Deacon Robert,

I acknowledge that the "inferiority complex" is at work but there are additional reasons:

1. Social majority - our churches are small and there are better "social connections" in the larger Western Church
2. Convenience - in Confession availability vigil and Sunday liturgies, daily Liturgies
3. Pressure to join the Roman Church is the children attend a Roman Catholic school, since our parishes don't financially support the school
4. More professional conversion classes, Religious Education, music
5. Intermarriage
6. The acceptance of "we are all Catholics, so it doesn't matter"
7. Personal priest preference, i.e. "shopping around" for the priest which one likes best

Many of our factors are beyond our control. The RDL makes very little difference in my area.

Fr Deacon Paul

Do you think they should delete the following Greek terms used in theology and worship?

ACOLYTE
ADIAPHORA
AGAPE
AGAPE
AGNOSTIC
AKATHIST
AKATHLEPTOS
ALLELUIA
AMBON
AMILLENNIALISM
ANAMNESIS
ANAPHORA
ANATHEMA
ANGELOLOGY
ANTEDILUVIAN
ANTHROPOCENTRISM
ANTHROPOLOGY
ANTHROPOMORPHOS
ANTHROPOPATHEIA
ANTIDORON
ANTILEGOMENA
ANTINOMIANISM
ANTIPHON
ANTITHESIS
APOCRYPHA
APOLOGIA
APOLYTIKION
APOSTASIA
APOSTLE
APOTHEOSIS
ARTOS
ATONEMENT
AUTODIDAKTOS
AUTOGRAPHA
AUTOTHEOS
AXIOLOGY
AXIOS
BAPTISM
CANON
CASSOCK
CATECHISM
CATECHUMEN
CATECHUMENATE
CATHEDRAL
CHRISMATION
CHRIST
CHRISTOLOGY
CHRISTOPHANY
CHRISTOTOKOS
CONCUPISCENCE
CONSUBSTANTIATION
COVENANT
CULT
DEISM
DEUTERO-CANONICAL
DIACONATE
DICHOTOMIA
DISPENSATIONALISM
DOGMA
DONATISM
DOXASTICON
DOXOLOGY
DUALISM
ECCLESIOLOGY
ECUMENICALISM
EGALITARIAN
EISEGESIS
EKPHONESIS
ELENCHUS
ELIAS
EPICLESIS
EPIPHANY
EPISCOPAL
EPISTLE
ESCHATOLOGY
EUCHARIST
EVANGELISM
EX CATHEDRA
EXAPOSTILARION
EXEGESIS
GENESIS
GNOSTICISM
GOSPEL
HAGIA GRAPHIA
HAGIA SOPHIA
HE KAINE DIATHEKE
HERESY
HERMENEIA
HERMENEUTICS
HEXAPSALMOS
HOMOLEGOUMENA
HOMOOUSIOS
HYMN
HYPAKOE
HYPERBOLE
HYPHENATION
HYPOSTASIS
ICON
ICONOCLASTS
IKOS
IRMOLOGION
IRMOS
IRMOS
JESUS
KATABASIA
KENOSIS
KENOTIC THEOLOGY
KOINE DIALEKTOS
KONTAKION
LECTIONARY
LECTOR
LEITURGIA
LITANY
LITY
LOGOS
MARIOLOGY
MELODY
MENAION
METAMORPHOSIS
METONYMY
MILLENNIAL
MONARCHIANISM
MONASTERY
MONK
MONOTHEISM
MYSTAGOGY
NEONOMOS
OCTOECHOS
ORTHODOX
ORTHOPRAXIS
OUSIA
PAEDOBAPTISM
PAEDOCOMMUNION
PANACHIDA
PANTHEOS
PARADEIGMA
PASCHA
PATRIOLOGY
PEDANTIC
PENTATEUCH
PENTECOST
PENTECOSTARION
PEREGRINATION
PIETY
PNEUMATOLOGY
POLEMICS
POLYELEION
POLYTHEISM
PRESBYTER
PROKEIMENON
PROLEGOMENON
PSALM
PSEUDEPIGRAPHA
SEPTUAGINTA
SOPHIOLOGY
SOTERIOLOGY
STICHERON
SYNERGISM
THEANTHROPOS
THEOLOGY
THEONOMOS
THEOPHANY
THEOS
THEOSIS
THEOTOKOS
TRANSUBSTANTIATION
TRICHOTOMIA
TRINITY
TRISAGION
TRITHEISM
TROPARION
TYPICON
TYPOLOGY

Ed,

Please don't encourage the ignorant to expose their ignorance further.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Fr. Deacon Lance,

The ignorant should be exposed for who they are, not protected. Maybe Pisankar can explain the statement that was made about the term "Theotokos"? It would be interesting to see what lies behind such ignorance. Even I know the meaning behind this highly regarded Greek term, which has much history from the Council of Ephesus.

Ed

Yes, let's not encourage them -- GOSPEL is number one on my list of the "Greek terms" that should be retained; TRANSUBSTANTIATION is a close second.

Before the playing of the hellenizing bandwagon becomes deafening, let me say I love the Greek language, and the word Theotokos. Although unassailable in its theological sense, I do not think it works in the RDL as intended. Our Slav forebearers certainly showed us there was a legitimate, equally unassailable, alternate approach. I think we should consider it too.

While there is nothing wrong with using the term "Theotokos" there is also nothing wrong with using the term "Mother of God" as a translation. It has a long usage in English. Orthodox Bishop Kallistos is on record stating that while he prefers "Theotokos" untranslated he believes that it is acceptable to translate it and that if you do the only term to use is "Mother of God".

As someone who prefers the translation we have used successfully for 40+ years I believe that I stand in good company with Bishop Kallistos who says "Mother of God" is a very legitimate translation. It is a very useful term - even Sikhs and Muslims know who you are talking about when you use it and it carries the familiarity that "Bohorodice" carried in Slavonic and which "Theotokos" does not carry in English. If Father Deacon Lance and others wish to consider me to be ignorant for preferring our 40 year tradition in using "Mother of God" they can go right ahead and do so. In these discussions I have disagreed with many of the arguments put forth but I have never once disrespected someone by calling him "ignorant".

The whole RDL has done nothing but harm the Church. It should be repealed immediately. I pray that the Holy Father rules favorably on the various appeals before him.

Administrator,

My take on the ignorance of the poster was in reply to Fr. Deacon Lance's use of the term. Are you calling Fr. Deacon Lance disrespectful too? The ignorance I refer to is the dissing of Greek terms, many of which are still constitutional of Christianity across the board of Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Evangelical, Eastern Catholics. Whether they are used in the RDL is of no matter. Just like you, I believe the RDL is a trashy text.

Your church has also adopted the terms "presbyter", "anaphora", "protosyncellus", "enarxis", "eparchy", and "protopresbyter". Should they diss these terms too? It seems that the Byzantine Catholic church has decided in its authority to refer to certain things, people, and offices with new (actually old) terms. What is the criterion(ia) in deciding which terms are acceptable? On one hand, they want to look and feel like "Orthodox", but on the other hand, they adopt gender-inclusive language without any explanation.

Ed

To prefer the transliteration Mother of God for Theotokos is fine. To label the title Theotokos "that horrible word" is the epitomy of ignorance and the one who does so has rightfully earned the label ignorant.

Fr. Deacon Lance

While your posts are far from a model of charity I was referring only to Father Deacon Lance's post.

No criteria for translation (if one exists) has been made public.

And please, do not call it "gender-inclusive". That is a political term. In reality gender neutral terminology excludes people.

No, it is an emotional response from someone who has been hurt by his Church. The people who created the RDL do not seem to care about the people they have hurt. That is so sad.

Feeling hurt by the hierarchs and liturgical commission is no excuse for disrespecting a title accorded to the Holy Virgin by an Ecumenical Council. I'm not willing to give a pass on this one because of hurt feelings.

A good pastor makes allowances for someone who has had the very way he relates to the Lord take from him, and is incredible spiritual pain. He approaches that person not with name-calling but with care and love, and then leads him gently towards healing.

Administrator,

Your reply to Fr. Deacon Lance was a reply to my post (Ed Hash was in your reply reference).

Who needs to be healed because the term Theotokos is used? What spiritual pain has been caused by using the term Theotokos?

I hope you don't think that a public forum is a substitute for a pastor. You are putting too much of a burden on your website. Fr. Deacon Lance brings up an interesting point: the word Theotokos was from an Ecumenical Council. No RDL bishop invented it. The term has been used in common language in Eastern Churches, both Orthodox and Catholic, for years in the Enlgish-speaking countries. A particular fondness for the Greek term has been adopted in the same vein as the term "orthodox" in place of "Christians of the True Faith". My aunt tells me that many "Greek" Catholics got angry with their pastors for using the term "orthodox" or "pravoslavni". They yelled at their priests that they were NOT "orthodox"; they were "Catholic". Now, the term "orthodox" has been used for ages as an adjective and as a title of a religious community. What is it for the Christians of the True Faith? What "eparchy" does the Christians of the True Faith belong to? How are the Christians of the True Faith different than Greek Caholics or Orthodox Catholics or Byzantine Catholics? From what I gather, the RDL bishops refused to use the term "Orthodox" in their worship because of the explosive nature of the term, not because of the appropriateness of the term. "Theotokos" was safe to adopt, but "Orthodox" was not. What one calls the Mother of God is not much of a problem as what people are called in church. This is the biggest sign of ignorance and audacity. People care more about what they are called than what God or his mother is called.

Ed

I agree. When things are not handled pastorally people leave the church.

Have you left your church?
Ed