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Father bless, Then Patriarch Bartholomew is not Orthodox? Should he then be replaced? From Patriarch Bartholomew: Her reinstatement in the condition prior to the Fall did not necessarily take place at the moment of her conception. We believe that it happened afterwards, as consequence of the progress in her of the action of the uncreated divine grace through the visit of the Holy Spirit, which brought about the conception of the Lord within her, purifying her from every stain. found at http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/blog/2005/03/08/patriach-bartholomew-on-the-immaculate-conception/Joe Dear Joe, The Lord bless you. I must have missed the part where Patriarch Barthomew asserts that the Theotokos actually committed any sin. I don't see that in the quote. I see that he is asserting that she grew in grace. Nothing I said has anything to do with ancestral sin or the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. Fr David Straut
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Fathers Thomas Hopko and John Behr of St. Vladimir's Seminary and my spiritual Father must not be Orthodox either.
Joe Dear Joe, Please do not put words in my mouth. I was talking of ideas, not people. Obviously Fr thomas and Fr John are priests in the Orthodox Church. (I know nothing of your spiritual father.) They are Orthodox Christians. But the doctrine that the Panaghia committed actual sins is not Orthodox. Fr David Straut
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Father bless, Then Patriarch Bartholomew is not Orthodox? Should he then be replaced? From Patriarch Bartholomew: Her reinstatement in the condition prior to the Fall did not necessarily take place at the moment of her conception. We believe that it happened afterwards, as consequence of the progress in her of the action of the uncreated divine grace through the visit of the Holy Spirit, which brought about the conception of the Lord within her, purifying her from every stain. found at http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/blog/2005/03/08/patriach-bartholomew-on-the-immaculate-conception/Joe Dear Joe, The Lord bless you. I must have missed the part where Patriarch Barthomew asserts that the Theotokos actually committed any sin. I don't see that in the quote. I see that he is asserting that she grew in grace. Nothing I said has anything to do with ancestral sin or the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. Fr David Straut I understand what Father David is trying to assert...I also understand what His Holiness, the Patriarch was discussing...he was qualifying what we generally did not need to clarify, and that is what the Orthodox position might be regarding the Roman Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception. The only thing that we know for sure from Scripture is that the Angel called the Blessed Virgin Mary, 'full of grace' at the Annunciation. What I believe Father David is trying to say is something which we generally do not say...in other words we do no like to analyze this or that (although ofcourse, theologians tend to ), but our very ethos, our very core beliefs, which come to us through the ages old wording of prayers of the Church in services and Liturgies, is one of believing that the Panaghia is above all sin. Please understand that I do not say this to act proud, or self righteous, but having been born into an Orthodox family, having been reared in an Orthodox school, and having experienced Orthodoxy in an Orthodox country, there is just a certain etho of love for the Theotokos which simply speaks to the soul, and it is just *understood* that she was, she is and always will be the most blessed, the most pure and immaculate and full of Grace among women then, now and forever. That is Orthodoxy and that is what I took Father David's comment to mean. In reality, no tradition has ever quite honoured her in quite the same way that the Orthodox always have...it is just as normal as breathing for a cradle Orthodox. Humbly, Alice
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Слава Ісусу Христу!
Alace,
That was profoundly soul searching. We can see eye to eye.
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Could the confusion be coming in for him in the understanding that I have noticed among many - I hope I have this right - that if the Theotokos was 'received' sinless in her nature, as by the Roman Dogma, then it denied her of her humanity. That is why a Feast that was always present in the Church, the Conception of St. Anne is/was so important. Through her Christ received his humanity, as what point she was given the grace to never sin I don't understand all that, we just know that she was always 'sinless'. God's grace was imparted to her long before she could have possibly sinned.
Hope I am making sence in my feble attemt to share my thought on it.
Anyway, that may have been what the people were relating to in the discussion he mentioned in the original post. Just a thought!
Anyway, just a thought
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Indeed Alice,
Well said! Without pondering on the accepted, received, perceived and/or believed differences of our honorable traditions I call to mind the motto of +John Paul II. "TOTUS TUUS"!
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I don't really see the importance of the question.
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Bless, Father David! Please accept my filial salute for stating this clearly and unreservedly!!  Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing! Alex
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Dear Friends,
With respect to St John Chrysostom et al. who claimed the Theotokos was "guilty" of little sins - the problem could be with the translation of their sayings into English.
So the fact that the Mother of God was anxious to find her Son Who was lost to her for three days and that she asked Him when she found Him in the temple "Why have You done thus to us?" etc., is considered by some Fathers to have been a mother's anxiety but hardly a "sin" in any sense of the word.
I think we can all well understand her anxiety when we lose Christ and look for Him here and there - until we find Him again in Church at the Liturgy and Holy Communion where He continues to be about His Father's business.
The holy liturgical prayers of the Orthodox Church indicate the All-Holiness of the Most Holy Virgin Theotokos.
And I would sooner believe that St John Chrysostom could commit a venial sin than the MOther of the Divine Word Incarnate!
The Forum is lucky indeed to have Father David!
Cheers,
Alex
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I too believe that the Theotokos never committed any sins, and this is a good and pious belief, but in Orthodoxy this belief is not a dogma, and so no one is anathematized for believing that the Blessed Virgin committed "small" sins during her life on earth.
God bless,
Todd Todd...I couldn't agree more and wanted to thank you for always being able to suscintly and clearly state the views/understanding of many such as myself... Chris/Job
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Here is an excerpt from St. John Maximovitch's treatise On the Veneration of the Theotokos The teaching of the complete sinlessness of the Mother of God (1) does not correspond to Sacred Scripture, where there is repeatedly mentioned the sinlessness of the One Mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ (I Tim. 2:5); and in Him is no sin U John 3:5); Who did no sin, neither was guile found in His mouth (I Peter 2:22); One that hath been in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin (Heb. 4:15); Him Who knew no sin, He made to be sin on our behalf (II Cor. 5:2 1). But concerning the rest of men it is said, Who is pure of defilement? No one who has lived a single day of his life on earth (Job 14:4). God commendeth His own love toward us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us If, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by His life (Rom. 5:8-10).
(2) This teaching contradicts also Sacred Tradition, which is contained in numerous Patristic writings, where there is mentioned the exalted sanctity of the Virgin Mary from Her very birth, as well as Her cleansing by the Holy Spirit at Her conception of Christ, but not at Her own conception by Anna. "There is none without stain before Thee, even though his life be but a day, save Thee alone, Jesus Christ our God, Who didst appear on earth without sin, and through Whom we all trust to obtain mercy and the remission of sins" (St. Basil the Great, Third Prayer of Vespers of Pentecost). "But when Christ came through a pure, virginal, unwedded, God-fearing, undefiled Mother without wedlock and without father, and inasmuch as it befitted Him to be born, He purified the female nature, rejected the bitter Eve and overthrew the laws of the flesh" (St. Gregory the Theologian, "In Praise of Virginity"). However, even then, as Sts. Basil the Great and John Chrysostom speak of this, She was not placed in the state of being unable to sin, but continued to take care for Her salvation and overcame all temptations (St. John Chrysostom, Commentary on John, Homily 85; St. Basil the Great, Epistle 160).
found at http://www.stmaryofegypt.org/library/st_john_maximovich/on_veneration_of_the_theotokos.htm
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It just seems like speculation to me.
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Here is an excerpt from St. John Maximovitch's treatise On the Veneration of the TheotokosThe teaching of the complete sinlessness of the Mother of God (1) does not correspond to Sacred Scripture, where there is repeatedly mentioned the sinlessness of the One Mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ (I Tim. 2:5); and in Him is no sin U John 3:5); Who did no sin, neither was guile found in His mouth (I Peter 2:22); One that hath been in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin (Heb. 4:15); Him Who knew no sin, He made to be sin on our behalf (II Cor. 5:2 1). But concerning the rest of men it is said, Who is pure of defilement? No one who has lived a single day of his life on earth (Job 14:4). God commendeth His own love toward us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us If, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by His life (Rom. 5:8-10). (2) This teaching contradicts also Sacred Tradition, which is contained in numerous Patristic writings, where there is mentioned the exalted sanctity of the Virgin Mary from Her very birth, as well as Her cleansing by the Holy Spirit at Her conception of Christ, but not at Her own conception by Anna. "There is none without stain before Thee, even though his life be but a day, save Thee alone, Jesus Christ our God, Who didst appear on earth without sin, and through Whom we all trust to obtain mercy and the remission of sins" (St. Basil the Great, Third Prayer of Vespers of Pentecost). "But when Christ came through a pure, virginal, unwedded, God-fearing, undefiled Mother without wedlock and without father, and inasmuch as it befitted Him to be born, He purified the female nature, rejected the bitter Eve and overthrew the laws of the flesh" (St. Gregory the Theologian, "In Praise of Virginity"). However, even then, as Sts. Basil the Great and John Chrysostom speak of this, She was not placed in the state of being unable to sin, but continued to take care for Her salvation and overcame all temptations (St. John Chrysostom, Commentary on John, Homily 85; St. Basil the Great, Epistle 160). found at http://www.stmaryofegypt.org/library/st_john_maximovich/on_veneration_of_the_theotokos.htmOnce again, Joe, you are comparing two different things. St John Maximovitch is (not Surprisingly) making a point about the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. He says absolutely nothing about the Mother of God committing an actual sin. This thread did not begin as the usual Orthodox diatribe about the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. Why are you taking it down the road so well travelled? There are numerous threads about that subject. I will eat my proverbial hat (kamilavka, in my case ) if you can produce a statement by our Father among the Saints John of Shanghai and San Francisco stating that the All-Holy Mother of God committed actual sins. Fr David Straut
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here here Father David here here
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Here is an excerpt from St. John Maximovitch's treatise On the Veneration of the TheotokosThe teaching of the complete sinlessness of the Mother of God (1) does not correspond to Sacred Scripture, where there is repeatedly mentioned the sinlessness of the One Mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ (I Tim. 2:5); and in Him is no sin U John 3:5); Who did no sin, neither was guile found in His mouth (I Peter 2:22); One that hath been in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin (Heb. 4:15); Him Who knew no sin, He made to be sin on our behalf (II Cor. 5:2 1). But concerning the rest of men it is said, Who is pure of defilement? No one who has lived a single day of his life on earth (Job 14:4). God commendeth His own love toward us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us If, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by His life (Rom. 5:8-10). (2) This teaching contradicts also Sacred Tradition, which is contained in numerous Patristic writings, where there is mentioned the exalted sanctity of the Virgin Mary from Her very birth, as well as Her cleansing by the Holy Spirit at Her conception of Christ, but not at Her own conception by Anna. "There is none without stain before Thee, even though his life be but a day, save Thee alone, Jesus Christ our God, Who didst appear on earth without sin, and through Whom we all trust to obtain mercy and the remission of sins" (St. Basil the Great, Third Prayer of Vespers of Pentecost). "But when Christ came through a pure, virginal, unwedded, God-fearing, undefiled Mother without wedlock and without father, and inasmuch as it befitted Him to be born, He purified the female nature, rejected the bitter Eve and overthrew the laws of the flesh" (St. Gregory the Theologian, "In Praise of Virginity"). However, even then, as Sts. Basil the Great and John Chrysostom speak of this, She was not placed in the state of being unable to sin, but continued to take care for Her salvation and overcame all temptations (St. John Chrysostom, Commentary on John, Homily 85; St. Basil the Great, Epistle 160). found at http://www.stmaryofegypt.org/library/st_john_maximovich/on_veneration_of_the_theotokos.htmOnce again, Joe, you are comparing two different things. St John Maximovitch is (not Surprisingly) making a point about the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. He says absolutely nothing about the Mother of God committing an actual sin. This thread did not begin as the usual Orthodox diatribe about the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. Why are you taking it down the road so well travelled? There are numerous threads about that subject. I will eat my proverbial hat (kamilavka, in my case ) if you can produce a statement by our Father among the Saints John of Shanghai and San Francisco stating that the All-Holy Mother of God committed actual sins. Fr David Straut Father bless, What does St. John mean then when he says that the "absolute sinlessness of Mary," in not in accordance with sacred Tradition and Scripture? Also, he speaks of her being purified and cleansed. If she is not purified and cleansed from sin, then what is she purified and cleansed from? While St. John does not come out and say explicitly that "The Theotokos sinned," it certainly is implied in everything he is saying. So in what way then is the Virgin Mary implicated in human sin? Joe
Last edited by JSMelkiteOrthodoxy; 10/28/08 06:10 PM.
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