www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Mary's Sinlessness

Dear all:

What exactly is the Eastern Orthodox belief regarding Mary being sinless?

I always thought that the Orthodox believe that Mary never committed the slightest sin -- just as we Catholics do -- but I recently came across some forum discussions in which some Orthodox asserted that the Theotokos DID sin, so I'm quite confused.

Of course, I personally believe in the Immaculate Conception and the absolute sinlessness of Mary... but that is beside the point. I'd like to know what the Orthodox believe.

As an Orthodox, I have never heard that the Blessed Virgin Mary sinned. (BTW, calling the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, simply 'Mary' doesn't sit well with us Orthodox--with all due respect, I wish that Catholics would go back to their old traditions. In Italy she is referred to as 'Santa Maria'...'Holy Mary'. I don't know why or when Roman Catholics started to call her simply 'Mary' in English...a pet peeve of mine!)

One of the titles we use often for the Virgin Mary is 'all holy'. In Greece, she is affectionately referred to simply as the 'Panaghia'..(the All Holy One)...

With such titles as 'all holy', it is doubtful that Orthodox can think of her as sinning.

I wouldn't put too much stock into what is said on some internet forums...some Orthodox, many of whom are new to the faith, make up 'traditions' simply to satisfy their own need to be polemic and antithetical to Roman Catholics.

We have no established doctrine really other than our reverence to her being full of grace and that she was the most holy of all women, chosen by God, and a true Orthodox is imbued with a love and honour for her that far surpasses any doctrine or other faith tradition. That is all I know!

In Christ,
Alice

This is one Latin Catholic who has never referred to her just as "Mary."

The most general position in Orthodoxy is that even though the Blessed Virgin Mary was conceived with ancestral sin just as we are, she committed no actual sin in her life. I have read other views however. Patriarch Bartholomew says that the Theotokos was purified of sin at the Annunciation. I've read other Orthodox theologian/scholars who say that the Theotokos must have had at least some minor venial faults (because no one is without sin accept Christ). St. John Chrysostom held that the Blessed Virgin Mary suffered from vanity and a desire to control her Son as evidenced at the wedding of Cana. I believe that a few other fathers believed that the Theotokos sinned and yet many believed that she didn't. I have to say that I've never heard of an Orthodox scholar or hierarch being charged with heresy or excommunicated because they believe that in some way, she had some kind of sin or venial fault that needed to be purified. I have read many Orthodox theologians who say that it is best to be silent about the issue and to hold that the Theotokos was (at some point) sanctified by God and that she undid the disobedience of Eve by her own obedience to the Angel's word at the Annunciation. The titles we use for the Theotokos; spotless, immaculate, all-holy, may simply indicate what she became and not necessarily indicate that there never was a time when she was not these things. When we are fully deified we will also be made immaculate and spotless.

Joe

This is best....

I would also add that despite tiny sin, (for who can really live and not sin other than God), the Theotokos was the holiest and most all immaculate and full of grace women who lived.

Yperagia Theotokos, soson imas!
All holy Mother of God, save (intercede) us! AMEN!

And my personal view is that the Theotokos was, in some way, implicated in humanity's sin, whether through ancestral sin alone or through some actual venial fault. I base this on four facts:

1) In our various liturgies and prayers, we call Christ "the only sinless one," "the only one beyond all sin," and we say "that there is not a man who lives and do not sin, You alone are without sin and your righteousness is from ages to ages."

2)St. Paul says in Romans that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. I do not see him making any exceptions.

3) In the Old Testament, many of the patriarchs and saints are called righteous ones and holy. In the Prayer of Manassah, it is said that Abraham and others needed no repentance. Yet we do not say that the patriarchs were absolutely without sin. Faithfulness to God and being declared righteous in the Old Testament is based on persistent and enduring faith in God and not on moral perfection in this life.

4) There is no uninamity among the fathers and there was no attempt to answer this question of Mary's sinlessness in the ancient Councils and canons of the early Church and one can, throughout Church history, find various positions on this among both Latin and Greek theologians.

I confess that I could be wrong and I pray that God will forgive me for my ignorance. But if the Ecumenical Patriarch can claim that the Theotokos wasn't purified until the Annunciation and not get taken to task for it by other Orthodox, then I think I'm on relatively safe ground.

Joe

Alice, yes I agree. And I think the question of an explanation of the Theotokos' sinlessness and purity should be left as a theolougomon (sp?).

Joe

St Basil, St John Chrysostom, St Cyril of Alexandria, and Origen, all taught that Mary suffered from venial personal faults.

Origen is certainly not a figure that Orthodox Christians should quote. His teaching has been condemned an Ecumenical Councul. As for St Basil the Great, St John Chrysostom, and St Cyril of Alexandria, all we Orthodox can say is this: even the holy fathers can err in matters of the Faith. St Gregory the Theologian believed in a type of universalism. The Blessed Augustine taught ideas about original sin, predestination, and grace which have not found acceptance by the Orthodox Church. The holy fathers were not infallible.

Our Panaghia is committed no sin at all. Period. This is our Orthodox Christian confession. To entertain other views is not Orthodox.

Fr David Straut

Dear Father David,

Bless.

Thank you for clarifying the Orthodox position, Father David.

I also believed that she did not sin, but the guys here made me confused as if I was wrong in some way..(I mean, I don't know that telling your son to do something at a wedding or being upset that your son disappeared is a sin)That is why I said 'despite little sin', for surely if there were sin (which I knew there wasn't but the guys here can make one feel insecure about oneself...LOL) it would have been so absolutely tiny and insignificant that it would probably not even be classed as such.

Kissing your right hand,
Alice

P.S.
Hmmm...well if 'desiring to control' is the reason that our Lord listens to her, then all I can say is 'thank God' because that is why we have her as our intercessor for all intentions, both personal and private, and collective as humanity.

Dear Fr. David:

So were those Fathers who entertained other views not Orthodox?

Ryan

Father bless,

Then Patriarch Bartholomew is not Orthodox? Should he then be replaced?

From Patriarch Bartholomew: Her reinstatement in the condition prior to the Fall did not necessarily take place at the moment of her conception. We believe that it happened afterwards, as consequence of the progress in her of the action of the uncreated divine grace through the visit of the Holy Spirit, which brought about the conception of the Lord within her, purifying her from every stain.

found at http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/blog/2005/03/08/patriach-bartholomew-on-the-immaculate-conception/

Joe

Fathers Thomas Hopko and John Behr of St. Vladimir's Seminary and my spiritual Father must not be Orthodox either.

Joe

Dear Ryan,

Well the reason that we venerate these men as Holy Fathers is that by and large they taught the Faith with exactitude and did not make many errors in their exposition of it. So I cannot think of anything else that the Church would later take issue with, except that St Cyril used some terminology that that would later not be used by the Church in speaking of the Natures of Christ because that terminology was further refined by the Cappadocian Fathers. St Cyril cannot be held responsible for using words that would later take on an unorthodox meaning.

Fr David Straut

Alice,

I too believe that the Theotokos never committed any sins, and this is a good and pious belief, but in Orthodoxy this belief is not a dogma, and so no one is anathematized for believing that the Blessed Virgin committed "small" sins during her life on earth.

God bless,
Todd