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Oh wow...this was not here when I was last on this forum and it's being here now is an answer to a prayer....
I recently went back to school to finally get my BA in History and am taking an Art History class this fall. I have to do an exhibit project and chose Icons as my topic(for several reasons a)the teacher keeps calling Icons 'abstract works of art' and b) okay, I admit it, I'm cheating here, I need all the intervention I can get). The class covers early art history and we are in the Byzantine part of the book right now, so my powerpoint presentation will be timely, but....now I have a couple of questions and if this is the wrong place to post this, I apologize, but since my project is on Holy Icons, I thought this might be the best place for help. I finished the paper, chose my Icons and put my powerpoint together and included an Mp3 of the Exapostolarian Pascha Orthos to the first slide. I did this so that I can point out that the Tone they are hearing is as old as the Icons and both Prayers and Icons are still part of the Liturgy today. But I hit a snag: I found the mp3 on an Othrodox website, I can't find the date for when it was composed and how long the Church, both Catholic and Orthodox have been using it. My husband says at least the 6th century, since that is when most of our Liturgies date from, but the textbook is saying that the earliest known Liturgies date from the 10 century. Since St. Basil lived long before then, I know the book is wrong. Can anyone tell me the earliest date for our Liturgies? Next question really is about the Icons themselves. I point out in both my paper and my powerpoint that Icons are not works of Art in the Western sense - they are not meant to be merely 'looked at' and that is why they seem so different from the religious and sacred art of the west. I took the common theme of Icons being a Window into Heaven as my title and I am using five Icons of the Theotokos to represent each of the five types...am I wrong in how I am presenting this, or is there anything I should add? I should mention this is due Friday, but I hit the snag in the textbook tonight and may have to re-work something before Friday.
To be serious, while I wouldn't mind a bit of Divine Intervention with my grade(I stink at art history), my real purpose in doing Icons is that this is not Ancient Egyptian or Greek artworks to me, this is my faith and I want to get the point across to my group that these aren't dead images in a dry museum they are looking at. I'm sort of throwing them a curve ball, by using a modern Icon of Christ Pantocrantor as the last slide of the presentation and pointing out the difference in His Eyes.... Any help or advice will be appreciated and prayers are always welcome... Vie
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Vie,
So good to see you back. Welcome home.
Many years,
Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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I am by no means an expert, but I thought the roots of the Divine Liturgy go back to 321 AD.
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I finished the paper, chose my Icons and put my powerpoint together and included an Mp3 of the Exapostolarian Pascha Orthos to the first slide. I did this so that I can point out that the Tone they are hearing is as old as the Icons and both Prayers and Icons are still part of the Liturgy today. But I hit a snag: I found the mp3 on an Othrodox website, I can't find the date for when it was composed and how long the Church, both Catholic and Orthodox have been using it. My husband says at least the 6th century, since that is when most of our Liturgies date from, but the textbook is saying that the earliest known Liturgies date from the 10 century. Since St. Basil lived long before then, I know the book is wrong. Can anyone tell me the earliest date for our Liturgies? The Easter Matins was written by St. John of Damascus. Is this what you are talking about? Please cite the exact words. Next question really is about the Icons themselves. I point out in both my paper and my powerpoint that Icons are not works of Art in the Western sense - they are not meant to be merely 'looked at' and that is why they seem so different from the religious and sacred art of the west. I took the common theme of Icons being a Window into Heaven as my title and I am using five Icons of the Theotokos to represent each of the five types...am I wrong in how I am presenting this, or is there anything I should add? I should mention this is due Friday, but I hit the snag in the textbook tonight and may have to re-work something before Friday. I am really confused about what you are trying to say here. Western Sacred art is realistic art according to the whim of the artists. Also Western Religious art can be used for decoration. Orthodox iconographers obey the canons and rules, traditions of iconography not according to their own ideas. I don't liek the expressions of icons as "windows". I remember a priest saying you look through windows. With icons you experience the divine reality. You are not outside looking through something. Are you trying to concentrate on the transfigured world that icons illustrate and symbolism? Have you read Ouspensky "The Meaning of Icons"?Start with that book. I think parts of it are on the web already and you can cite in web article in your bibliography.
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The Easter Matins was written by St. John of Damascus. Is this what you are talking about? Please cite the exact words. Yes, thank you....I did finally track down the dates and pointed out in class the other day that the book was wrong. The mp3 I have used starts with the words "Having slept in the flesh as a mortal..." I am really confused about what you are trying to say here. Western Sacred art is realistic art according to the whim of the artists. Also Western Religious art can be used for decoration. Orthodox iconographers obey the canons and rules, traditions of iconography not according to their own ideas. I don't liek the expressions of icons as "windows". I remember a priest saying you look through windows. With icons you experience the divine reality. You are not outside looking through something. Are you trying to concentrate on the transfigured world that icons illustrate and symbolism? Have you read Ouspensky "The Meaning of Icons"? Start with that book. I think parts of it are on the web already and you can cite in web article in your bibliography. sorry for not being clearer....this is exactly the difference I am trying to get across in my presentation, along with the point that while the Egyptian and Greek we've been studying up to this point is no longer used for religous purposes, the Sacred Icons are still a vital part of the Eastern Christian Liturgical and prayer life and not some 'abstract' looking pictures hung in a museum. I did find the Ouspenky articles on the web and cited him along with a few others. Food for thought about 'windows' and I will work on that tonight...thank you for pointing that out. The presentation is tomorrow, but the final draft of the exhibit paper isn't due till December, so I have time to work on the research parts of it. Thank you for your help and advice.
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I am by no means an expert, but I thought the roots of the Divine Liturgy go back to 321 AD. Exactly what I thought.
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Here are the words of the Ecumenical Patriarch on the topic. The quote is from Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew'c Historic Address to Pope and General Assembly of Catholic Bishops in the Sistine Chapel,Vatican City on 10/21/2008 2. Seeing the Word of God -- The Beauty of Icons and NatureNowhere is the invisible rendered more visible than in the beauty of iconography and the wonder of creation. In the words of the champion of sacred images, St. John of Damascus: "As maker of heaven and earth, God the Word was Himself the first to paint and portray icons." Every stroke of an iconographer's paintbrush -- like every word of a theological definition, every musical note chanted in psalmody, and every carved stone of a tiny chapel or magnificent cathedral -- articulates the divine Word in creation, which praises God in every living being and every living thing. (cf. Ps. 150.6) In affirming sacred images, the Seventh Ecumenical Council of Nicaea was not concerned with religious art; it was the continuation and confirmation of earlier definitions about the fullness of the humanity of God's Word. Icons are a visible reminder of our heavenly vocation; they are invitations to rise beyond our trivial concerns and menial reductions of the world. They encourage us to seek the extraordinary in the very ordinary, to be filled with the same wonder that characterized the divine marvel in Genesis: "God saw everything that He made; and, indeed, it was very good." (Gn. 1.30-31) The Greek (Septuagint) word for "goodness" is kallos, which implies -- etymologically and symbolically -- a sense of "calling." Icons underline the Church's fundamental mission to recognize that all people and all things are created and called to be "good" and "beautiful." Indeed, icons remind us of another way of seeing things, another way of experiencing realities, another way of resolving conflicts. We are asked to assume what the hymnology of Easter Sunday calls "another way of living." For we have behaved arrogantly and dismissively toward the natural creation. We have refused to behold God's Word in the oceans of our planet, in the trees of our continents, and in the animals of our earth. We have denied our very own nature, which calls us to stoop low enough to hear God's Word in creation if we wish to "become participants of divine nature." (2 Pet 1.4) How could we ignore the wider implications of the divine Word assuming flesh? Why do we fail to perceive created nature as the extended Body of Christ? Eastern Christian theologians always emphasized the cosmic proportions of divine incarnation. The incarnate Word is intrinsic to creation, which came to be through divine utterance. St. Maximus the Confessor insists on the presence of God's Word in all things (cf. Col. 3.11); the divine Logos stands at the center of the world, mysteriously revealing its original principle and ultimate purpose (cf. 1 Pet 1.20). This mystery is described by St. Athanasius of Alexandria: As the Logos [he writes], he is not contained by anything and yet contains everything; He is in everything and yet outside of everything ... the first-born of the whole world in its every aspect. The entire world is a prologue to the Gospel of John. And when the Church fails to recognize the broader, cosmic dimensions of God's Word, narrowing its concerns to purely spiritual matters, then it neglects its mission to implore God for the transformation -- always and everywhere, "in all places of His dominion" -- of the whole polluted cosmos. It is no wonder that on Easter Sunday, as the Paschal celebration reaches its climax, Orthodox Christians sing: Now everything is filled with divine light: heaven and earth, and all things beneath the earth. So let all creation rejoice. All genuine "deep ecology" is, therefore, inextricably linked with deep theology: "Even a stone," writes Basil the Great, "bears the mark of God's Word. This is true of an ant, a bee and a mosquito, the smallest of creatures. For He spread the wide heavens and laid the immense seas; and He created the tiny hollow shaft of the bee's sting." Recalling our minuteness in God's wide and wonderful creation only underlines our central role in God's plan for the salvation of the whole world. http://www.archons.org/news/detail.asp?id=269
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ST. GREGORY of PALAMAS - On the Holy Icons
'You shall not make an image of anything in the heavens above, or in the earth below, or in the sea' (cf. Ex 20.4), in such a way that you worship these things and glorify them as gods. For all are the creations of the one God, created by Him in the Holy Spirit through His Son and Logos, who as Logos of God in these latter times took flesh from a virgin's womb, appeared on earth and associated with men, and who for the salvation of men suffered, died and rose again, ascended with His body into the heavens, and 'sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on High' (Heb 1.3), and who will come again with His body to judge the living and the dead. Out of love for Him you should make, therefore, an icon of Him who became man for our sakes, and through His icon you should bring Him to mind and worship Him, elevating your intellect through it to the venerable body of the Saviour, that is set on the right hand of the Father in heaven.
In like manner you should also make icons of the saints and venerate them, not as gods --for this is forbidden-- but because of the attachment,inner affection and sense of surpassing honour that you feel for the saints when by means of their icons the intellect is raised up to them. It was in this spirit that Moses made icons of the Cherubim within the Holy of Holies (cf. Ex 25.18). The Holy of Holies itself was an image of things supercelestial (cf. Ex 25.40; Heb 8.5), while the Holy Place was an image of the entire world. Moses called these things holy, not glorifying what is created, but through it glorifying God the Creator of the world. You must not,then, deify the icons of Christ and of the saints, but through them you should venerate Him who originally created us in His own image, and who subsequently consented in His ineffable compassion to assume the human image and to be circumscribed by it.
You should venerate not only the icon of Christ, but also the similitude of His cross. For the cross is Christ's great sign and trophy of victory over the devil and all his hostile hosts; for this reason they tremble and flee when they see the figuration of the cross. This figure, even prior to the crucifixion, was greatly glorified by the prophets and wrought great wonders; and when He who was hung upon it, our Lord Jesus Christ, comes again to judge the living and the dead, this His great and terrible sign will precede Him, full of power and glory (cf. Mt 24.30). So glorify the cross now, so that you may boldly look upon it then and be glorified with it. And you should venerate icons of the saints, for the saints have been crucified with the Lord; and you should make the sign of the cross upon your person before doing so, bringing to mind their communion in the sufferings of Christ. In the same way you should venerate their holy shrines and any relic of their bones; for God's grace is not sundered from these things, even as the divinity was not sundered from Christ's venerable body at the time of His life-quickening death. By doing this and by glorifying those who glorified God --for through their actions they showed themselves to be perfect in their love for God-- you toowill be glorified together with them by God, and with David you will chant: 'I have held Thy friends in high honour, O Lord' (Ps 139.17 LXX).
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The Liturgy of Saint James is considered to be the oldest surviving liturgy developed for general use in the Church. Its date of composition is still disputed with some authorities proposing an early date, perhaps ca. AD 60, close to the time of composition of Saint Paul's Epistle to the Romans, while most authorities propose a IV century date, being this anaphora a developed from an ancient Egyptian form of the Basilean anaphoric family united with the anaphora described in The Catechisms of St. Cyril of Jerusalem[1]. The earliest manuscript is the ninth-century codex, Vaticanus graecus 2282, which had been in liturgical use at Damascus, in the diocese of Antioch. The only critical edition is the one published by Dom B.-Charles Mercier in the Patrologia Orientalis, vol. 26 (1950). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgy_of_St_JamesThe general scholarly consensus is that this liturgy originated in Jerusalem during the late fourth or early fifth century. It quickly became the primary liturgy in Jerusalem and Antioch. Although it was later superseded in Jerusalem and Antioch by the Liturgy of St. Basil and the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, it had already spread to other areas of the Church. The oldest manuscript traditions are in Greek and Syriac, and there are also extant manuscripts in Armenian, Ethiopic, and Georgian. One leading theory today is that of John Fenwick, who argues that the similarities between this liturgy and that of St. Basil demonstrate their respective developments from a common source, now lost, but which is best preserved in the Egyptian recension of the Liturgy of St Basil. Fenwick suggests that the Liturgy of St. James was composed by St. Cyril of Jerusalem c. 370. Today it is the principal liturgy of the Syriac Orthodox Church, the Syrian Catholic Church, the Indian Orthodox Church, the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church, and the Mar Thoma Church. http://orthodoxwiki.org/Liturgy_of_St._James
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http://books.google.com/books?id=O4pj9YNdgJYCThe Sabaite heritage in the Orthodox church from the fifth century ... - Google Books Resultby Joseph Patrich - 2001 - History - 463 pages One of the oldest liturgical texts is the Jerusalem lectionary10 with its supplements: a hymnographic collection (the Old Tropologion)" and a homiletic ... books.google.com/books?isbn=9042909765... This article makes reference to some of the oldest Jerusalem liturgical texts being in the Georgian language and explains why this is so. link [ books.google.com] Link [ books.google.com]
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Thank all of you so much for your help...though the powerpoint presentation was this past Friday, I still have the research paper to finish and all of your help is greatly appreciated.
As for the powerpoint presentation....I had the material, I had the beautiful ancient Icons...I had my points to make..then got nervous and botched the whole thing :-O
But it's okay...I got across the point I wanted to make I guess when I used the Icon of the Pantacrater and led the group in an excerise where I had the them block first the right side then the left side of the Icon...they came away understanding that there is more to Holy Icons than just "works of art" and that was my main goal. If I could have just used that one Icon for my presentation, I might have done a better job.
Anyway, thanks and Blessings to all for your help...
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