www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship The Kliros Ensuring Beautiful Liturgies

No not at all... we are chanting the epistles. I keep hearing about all these odd abridgments, but have yet to ever experience them first hand. Divine liturgy for me has never lasted less than 90 minutes. If there is anything odd about our parish it is that the entire congregation sings - from my 3 year old to the 80 year old gentleman who always sits in the second row.

Ung,

My parish chants the Epistle and sings the Creed, but if we were to just read or recite them, I doubt that it would shorten the liturgy more then a few minutes. A liturgy under an hour would still not be accomplished.

Most BCC parishes that I have been to celebrate the Divine Liturgy reverently with no regard to a time schedule. I have never attended a Sunday Divine Liturgy that took less than 75 Minutes.

Mike

[quote=Mike L.]

My parish chants the Epistle and sings the Creed, but if we were to just read or recite them, I doubt that it would shorten the liturgy more then a few minutes. A liturgy under an hour would still not be accomplished.

Most BCC parishes that I have been to celebrate the Divine Liturgy reverently with no regard to a time schedule. I have never attended a Sunday Divine Liturgy that took less than 75 Minutes.

[quote=Mike L.]



Then your parish is the exception to this rule. Out East here, whether in the Parma Eparchy, Pittsburgh Archeparchy or Passaic Eparchy, it is the norm to just have anyone "recite" the Epistle and the whole congregation to "recite" the Nicene Creed. This recitation never seems to be done in the numerous Orthodox parishes that I attend.

In fact, at St. Michael the Archangel Orthodox (ACROD) Church Centennial Hierarchial Divine Liturgy yesterday, Metropolitan Nicholas "tonsured" a young man to order of Reader. In the Orthodox Church, the Epistle is never simply recited, but always chanted, according to each Orthodox Churches' liturgical chant tradition. This is one example what seperates the Byzantine Catholic parishes from their sister Orthodox Churches. How committed are our Byzantine Catholic parishes dedicated to uphold our Eastern Christian liturgical tradition?

...but I digress.

Ung

Sometimes I wonder if being on the West coast were there are fewer parishes allows us to be a bit more traditional and not just simply fall into the status quo by blindly following what the Parish in the next town does?

I don't know much more and no sense getting it second hand from me. The link to the parish's website has contact information for the pastor, Fr. Ed Cimbala, who is very accessible. He initiated the arrangements for the cantor, and this was a priority item for him; I'm sure he'd be very willing to share his thoughts on the matter -- call him or email to get the best direct info. And let us know what you find.

Tim,

Beauty is the in eye and ear of the beholder. I think that the most beautiful sound is when the entire congregation is singing together praises to God instead of listening and praying through one individual's or a small group's interpretation of how they think the liturgy should sound.

-Katie g

Ung,
I think that reading the Epistle is the "exception" rather than chanting. The Epistle and Creed are always chanted Creek is sung) in DuBois and in Sykesville on Sundays.

How many BC parishes have you been to which read the Epistle and Creed?

Fr Deacon Paul

"...it is the norm to just have anyone "recite" the Epistle and the whole congregation to "recite" the Nicene Creed. This recitation never seems to be done in the numerous Orthodox parishes that I attend"

Reciting the Nicene Creed is the Greek practice.

If it's any comfort to you, the Greek Orthodox cathedral in the Philippines normally celebrates the Divine Liturgy in just about an hour. The cantors don't know Byzantine chant so they just "recto tono" much of the liturgy.

All fives Byzantine Catholic parishes that I attend, all who are in the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh, recite the Nicene Creed. I believe it is purposely done to keep the liturgy under one hour.

Ung

I am Greek Orthodox but attend an ACROD parish in the Chicago area.
First of all in the Greek church we always recite the Creed and the Our Father in Greek and English. This is done so that everyone can say it together. I don't think there are any musical settings for these, and have never heard them sung either here or in Greece.
Secondly, in my ACROD parish we also recite the Creed. As you know, the ACROD is very close to the BBC in chant, rubrics, and other customs. I also know that many other Orthodox think that the ACROD is very latinized and not to be looked at for any kind of guidance or Liturgical purity. HOWEVER, even we can't do a Sunday Divine Litugy in less than 1 hour.
If everything in the book is taken, even with the Creed recited, we still CANNOT finish in less than 1hr.45-55 mins. It is impossible! Maybe on a minor Feast day when there are only 10 people in church it can be an hour and 15 minutes, but never on a Sunday. And this is with no Deacon! And with plain chant (with a choir it still clocks in the same)!
So I find it hard to accept that a BBC Liturgy can be done in less than 1 hr. I don't doubt you, I just find it hard to believe.

I also think that a cantor should be paid if the parish can do so. But if a cantor can't be found, then hold classes and train the parish members to sing in the simplest tones possible rather than get people who are musicaly capable but ignorant of the tradition and "sound" of Prostopenie.
I would rather have a whole congregation singing badly or a scratchy choir than the beauitful, proud voice of a foreigner. I have listened to the recordings on the Metropolitan Cantor Institute site, and while they are nice, there is someting "off" about them.
Anyway, those are my thoughts.

Nino

As a member of the BCC for approximately 34 years my experience was almost every week was under 1 hour. Currently with ACROD our minimum is 75 minutes. As cantor in both the BCC and now ACROD, almost every week I try to "pinpoint" what we were (or were not doing) and I can not come up with much difference. Beatitudes and litany before the Our Father do not constitute a 20 minute difference.

...but by using the RDL with the priest "reciting" the Anaphora prayers out loud, and parishes only singing one verse of the "Thrice Holy Hymn", and the people "reciting" the Nicene Creed again to keep liturgy under one hour. So most of the liturgy is "rushed" and "shortened" just to let the priest recite these prayers out loud. Not only does it shorten the liturgical experience, it also breaks the flow of the liturgy, especially when everyone is singing together only to have an abrupted halt to stop and "recite" the Anaphora prayers and "recite" the Nicene Creed", etc.

Ung

Singing the "Sviaty Boze" only once? For real? Where is that happening? That should be brought to the Bishop's attention.

In 11 or so years of attending a Ruthenian church, only a few times can I remember the Sunday DL lasting under 1 hour 15 minutes at least, and that is under 3 separate pastors. The creed was always sung too.

[/quote]

...but by using the RDL with the priest "reciting" the Anaphora prayers out loud, and parishes only singing one verse of the "Thrice Holy Hymn", and the people "reciting" the Nicene Creed again to keep liturgy under one hour. So most of the liturgy is "rushed" and "shortened" just to let the priest recite these prayers out loud. Not only does it shorten the liturgical experience, it also breaks the flow of the liturgy, especially when everyone is singing together only to have an abrupted halt to stop and "recite" the Anaphora prayers and "recite" the Nicene Creed", etc.

Ung [/quote]

Ung,

Some of our priests chant the Anaphora prayers, not recite them. I can't tell you the percentage.

As far as breaking the "flow", do you chant or recite the Communion Prayer?
Please try to make your comments representative, not absolute. I value your opinion and know that you cherish your Faith, but some readers of this forum who have never been to a BC Divine Liturgy may be forming some bad opinions which aren't totally correct.

Praying for fraternal charity, especially within the Eastern Churches,

Fr. Deacon Paul

In our parish, we recite the Communion Prayer. I've only heard it sung once (at Uniontown) to the music otherwise used for the Creed.

The Greeks, however, enjoy singing "Of Thy Mystical Supper . .."

Fr. Serge