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Mar 25th, 2025
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True, abortion tops the list but,with all due respect, there are more ways to skin a cat than to sabotage the country with dangerously ignorant leaders,disregard (disrespect)the poor, the Iraqi babies born with birth defects because of our bombs,those whose lives are made a living hell because of our presence in Iraq,and those going down the tubes because of our economy. IF these problems affected us we wouldn't so flippantly decide,that the only way to cure abortion is to sacrifice the rest of the world.The church does not ask us to do that. If you are not alive then you can’t worry about the other issues. Disregard the poor? If you want to help them then don’t enslave them to welfare. Give them limited benefits and put them to work. Feed them while you teach them the skills to support themselves. The socialism being pushed by the liberal Democrats is going to kill the country. Look what it did in the mortgage sub-prime mess. Everyone got a loan. Even the people who could not pay them back. Look what happened. Barny Frank & Chris Dodd and their friends in Congress led us to these tough economic times. They are both liberal Democrats who lean towards socialism. They will ruin us. Curing abortion does not mean sacrificing the rest of the world. You want to see birth defects in Iraq? Go visit the Kurds. The chemical bombs dropped by Saddam Hussein left them with very high levels of birth defects. It is amazing how some people forget that we have liberated 50 million people in Afghanistan and Iraq and only see America as an evil nation. Such people are wrong. I recently finished reading Frederica Matthewes-Green's wonderful book Real Choices:listening to women,looking for alternatives to abortion. There are many things we can do to find solutions to help prevent abortion that could lead to the lack of a need for abortion clinics to even exist. Have you been a witness for life in front of an abortion death camp? Have you given of your private resources to funds to help single mothers bear their children and either keep them or give them for adoption? Have you contacted your Church to see what you can do to get involved? Have you voted pro-life? If you have not voted pro-life then you voted pro-abortion. Nothing adds up to be more immoral then the murder 4,000 babies each day in America. Frankly Helen I'm not going to discuss this with you anymore. There are so many logical fallacies in your last post that I don't know where to begin. But the main reason that I'm not going to discuss this is that you are veering off topic. The topic is not whether liberal democrats are socialist or whether they have good or bad economic policies. The topic is whether one ought to refrain from communion for voting for a pro-choice politician and secondarily, the topic is whether there are any legitimate (non-sinful) reasons for voting for a pro-choice politician. If you believe that the Republicans support numerous intrinsic evils (as I do) then you can balance such evils against abortion and perhaps come up with a conclusion that favors voting for the democrats. Or perhaps you may not. But instead of just giving blanket condemnations and calling people wrong and immoral, I think it would better facilitate reasonable dialogue to try to listen to others and understand their reasoning. Frankly, the tone is getting a little condescending and so I now withdraw from this conversation. Joe
Last edited by JSMelkiteOrthodoxy; 11/18/08 04:50 PM.
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Frankly Helen I'm not going to discuss this with you anymore. There are so many logical fallacies in your last post that I don't know where to begin. But the main reason that I'm not going to discuss this is that you are veering off topic. The topic is not whether liberal democrats are socialist or whether they have good or bad economic policies. I was responding again to your earlier posts which included justifications that have nothing to do with intrinsic evils. The topic is whether one ought to refrain from communion for voting for a pro-choice politician and secondarily, the topic is whether there are any legitimate (non-sinful) reasons for voting for a pro-choice politician. If you believe that the Republicans support numerous intrinsic evils (as I do) then you can balance such evils against abortion and perhaps come up with a conclusion that favors voting for the democrats. Or perhaps you may not. But instead of just giving blanket condemnations and calling people wrong and immoral, I think it would better facilitate reasonable dialogue to try to listen to others and understand their reasoning. Frankly, the tone is getting a little condescending and so I now withdraw from this conversation. If one voted for a pro-abortion (not “pro-choice”) politician when there was a pro-life politician available then yes, one should not take Communion. The only legitimate reasons for voting for a pro-abortion (not “pro-choice”) politician is when there is not a pro-life candidate on the ballot. McCain was not perfect. But when compared to Obama he is almost perfect since Obama is really bad on life issues. Abortion is always an intrinsic evil. The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are not intrinsic evils, and both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches allow their members the freedom to believe that these wars of liberation were just wars. Again I ask (and Joe always sidesteps) what intrinsic evils add up to the murder of 4,000 babies each day in America? So long as good people like Joe support abortionists with their votes advancing the agenda of life will be very difficult.
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The only legitimate reasons for voting for a pro-abortion (not “pro-choice”) politician is when there is not a pro-life candidate on the ballot. McCain was not perfect. But when compared to Obama he is almost perfect since Obama is really bad on life issues.
Abortion is always an intrinsic evil. "Abortion is always an intrinsic evil." Indeed. So is embryonic stem cell research. No one has yet made a compelling argument that McCain would have done anything to limit abortion - his own campaign people publically distancing themselves from the much more pro-life Palin camp since the very flawed campaign ended speaks for itself. I don't count pandering to a dwindling conservative fringe for much. If we are going to start triaging those who support various forms of infanticide, we have certainly fallen into the abyss of relativism. Remember the National Right-to-Life committee ad during the primary season: "If you want a strong pro-life president...don't vote for John McCain". Some of us don't forget things or look the other way over a period of a few months, nor even bend at every capricious and Machiavellian twist of a PAC firmly entrenched in the upper management of one of the major political parties. I vote for life, not parties or PACs. Lord, have mercy on us all; may our prayer to You increase.
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Enough !! What is done is done! Stop throwing brickbats at one another !! It seems to me prayer is the thing that is now needed after this election. Save your energy for that.
Viking
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AthanasiusTheLesser Member
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Enough !! What is done is done! Stop throwing brickbats at one another !! It seems to me prayer is the thing that is now needed after this election. Save your energy for that.
Viking Very well said. Ryan
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Helen:
Do you think you have equal footing with a priest or bishop. You have no right to judge who should or should not be receiving communion.
Viking
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John Member
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From the original article linked at the start of this therad:
In a letter posted on St. Mary's Web site, [The Rev. Jay Scott Newman, priest at St. Mary's Catholic Church in downtown Greenville] wrote that "voting for a pro-abortion politician when a plausible pro-life alternative exists constitutes material cooperation with intrinsic evil."
Catholics who did so should be reconciled to God through penance before receiving communion, "lest they eat and drink their own condemnation," Newman wrote, echoing a I Corinthians admonition for anyone who partakes "without recognizing the body of the Lord."
The response from parishioners has been supportive by a margin of 9 to 1, Newman said. He also cited Scripture in urging parishioners to pray for Obama and cooperate with him wherever conscience permits.
Bishops in Baltimore for their annual meeting this week are wrestling with how to explain church teaching on abortion in light of voters' choice of Obama, who is Protestant, and Biden, who is Catholic, according to The Associated Press.
Francis Cardinal George, president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, told colleagues that "the common good can never be adequately incarnated in any society when those waiting to be born can be legally killed." I’d say this priest is right on target. It is interesting to know that exit polls revealed that there was a direct relationship between participation in worship services and voting for Pro-Life candidates. The more often one worshipped with the Church (i.e., Sunday Mass or daily Mass) the more likely one was to vote for Pro-Life candidates. Those who worshipped less then weekly or not at all (this last group contains 1/3 of all Catholics) voted mostly for Pro-Abortion candidates. I will give Father Newman the last word here except for one comment and three links. Senator McCain was far from perfect. But he would not be asking Congress to send him the “Freedom of Choice Act” so that he could sign it on his first day in office, or promise to overturn the Mexico City policy on his first day in office, or be using a pro-abortion litmus test as a qualification for court appointments. Fargo Bishop Most Rev. Samuel J. Aquila, D.D. has an excellent column in his diocesan newspaper this week: Support, in word and deed, the dignity of human life [ fargodiocese.org] (PDF)Bishop Robert Finn of Kansas City-St. Joseph, [on election day] in a clear reference to presidential candidate Obama, said that it is gravely sinful for a Catholic to "support a person who wants to go to complete full-scale war against the unborn": Blunt statements for US bishops: Voting for pro-abortion candidates is gravely sinful [ catholicculture.org] CatholicCulture.org Commentary: You can't be any poorer then dead. [ catholicculture.org]
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