www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology No Communion Spoon?

I have never been to an Ec liturgy where a cloth was not held incase the host was dropped. It was probably there and you didn't notice it. ?

Alexis,

I really can, and do, appreciate your scrupulousness...to a degree!

I knew someone would challenge me on the late origin of the lack of the Communion Spoon. But I really have looked hard, and the photographic evidence bears me out.

Fr. Korolevsky is seldom wrong, but this time I'm not inclined to take his word for it (having myself been fooled more than once by people doing everything but call upon a Notary to assure me of earlier dates) in the absence of the above-mentioned photographic evidence - some of which comes from a book which he himself edited.

I can testify that the devotees of this particular aberration are amazingly defensive about it - which indicates that somehow they know that there is dirty work at the crossroads.


As for the claim of a survival of a more ancient Syrian custom - forget it. If that were the case, it would also have survived in the three Greek Orthodox Patriarchates (Antioch, Alexandria, and Jerusalem), but there is not a sign of it in those Patriarchates).

The really old tradition which died out is still prescribed, although seldom followed, in the Liturgy of Saint James - giving the Holy Body into the hand of the communicant, and the Precious Blood to drink from the chalice.

The latest annoyance is the habit of the hierarchs and clergy - who really ought to know better - of approaching the Chalice(es), dipping in a Particle of the Holy Body, and thus avoiding drinking from the Chalice at all. Nobody, but nobody, has ever substantiated a claim of transmission of diseases through Holy Communion.

Fr. Serge

Anybody know when the Romanian Greek Catholics started distributing Communion in the Melkite fashion?

Just curious!

Dave

The Melkites I saw in California all used the cloth and had one person holding from each side to catch anything that might fall while communion was being given. Now the BCC church I went to in Las Vegas the priest and eveyone else in the building had no idea what the cloth was there for. They just let it drop after every communicant, so what ever it caught was on the floor. The servers just stood there watching.

Here in Australia at the UGCC no one knows how to use the cloth either (it just hangs there limp) and Latin communion plates are still in use. Mind you here there is a hell of a lot of de-latinising to do and too much for one man to sort out, especially as the Bishop is not well. The bishop has taken the UGCC here forward in leaps and bounds since he arrived from Canada.

I personally don't see it as a big deal that some Eastern parishes use a communion plate rather than the cloth - afterall, the purpose of both is the same.. it seems rather trivial to me to quibble about it..

Father Serge, bless,

You had mentioned that the Greek Orthodox Patriarchates would have the practice of intinction by the hand of the priest if this were an ancient custom - I disagree, I think that the Syriac and Indians have the practice to this day is a better indicator that this is an ancient practice. In my view, the Greek Rites being the imperial preference eventually gave way and many of the olders customs were set aside for the Greek ones in the major cities - but in the surrounding areas (country-sides and non-urban areas, where the Semitic Churches were more strong) the practice of Communing by hand was just as acceptable as by spoon. There are even Syriac/Indian Church priests that even offer Communion to the people as the Latins used to - just the Body (the Blood was sprinkled/co-mingled with the Body on the altar, but not enough to soak into every particle)- although the priest receives both.

The Antiochian Greek Orthodox Church and the Melkite Greek-Catholic Church were one and the same until 1724, by which time the Emperor was, unfortunately, out of business. I doubt that the Sultan was interested in who used what vessel to administer Holy Communion.

But take heart; it is quite possible that Father Archimandrite Robert Taft's imminently forthcoming book will provide further information on the Communion Spoon.

Fr. Serge

Bless, Father,

Photographic evidence or not, at the very least, one must acknowledge that the change in custom almost assuredly dates to before 1900. The text that I referenced was translated from materials published by Father Cyril in 1910 according to Bishop Nicholas' Foreword to Vol. I and the bibliography contained in the Appendix to that volume.

Many years,

Neil

Father, that is enough to scare the pants off a traditional Latin! (I.e., a traditional liturgy calling for Communion in the hand). Yikes!

Alexis

Now, now. Go to an Assyrian Church of the East Eucharist some time.

Fr. Serge

Alexis, you should look at the early council documents.

You'll note that Communion in the hand is specified with the instruction that one hand is to support the other like a throne.

ALEXIS:

St. Cyril of Jerusalem in the 4th century tells us how we are to approach the Eucharist:

"When you approach, do not come with outstretched hands and fingers, but make the left hand as it were the throne of the right, which is destined to receive the King, and receive the Body fo Christ into the hollow of you hand and say, "Amen." After you have purified your eyes by cautiously applying them to the Sacred Body, be careful, in consuming it, that no particle falls to the ground . . . Having partaken of the Body of Christ, step forward to take the chalice of the Blood; do not stretch out your hands, but drop them and assuming an attitude of adoration and homage, say, "Amen," and sanctify yourself by participation in the Blood of Christ."
(quoted by Louis Kaczmarek in his book, Hidden Treasure, The Riches of the Eucharist, Trinity Communications, Manassas, VA, 1990)


BOB

Heavens, y'all. It's not like I didn't know about this stuff (except for Father's mention of the way the Assyrians receive Communion...).

Of course I know about all that. That doesn't mean it is appropriate nowadays for Roman Catholics. There is a deep divide between traditionalism and antiquarianism. The mindset of "well, they did it 1700 years ago, so it's gotta be kosher today" was the veil through which so much muck entered the Roman Rite in the past 40 years.

There is also a reason that most of the Churches abandoned C.I.T.H. over a millennium ago, as the Church further pondered the wondrous mystery of the Eucharist.

Alexis

P.S. I wasn't saying that I was that traditional Catholic who'd flip out; I was just noting that there are a good many who would. Not that I'm defending that.

Ack! To arms! Someone do something about this Grecianization!



hawk

ALEXIS:

I've long maintained that it is not in the external practice that one ought to be primarily concerned, but the external practice as a reflection of the heart that matters. There are those who might be ritually perfect in their reception but whose attitude toward others is the very attitude of the man bound and thrown out in the Parable of the Wedding Feast.

By no means would anyone ever accuse me of being less than a very traditional Catholic--I've even been questioned as to whether I am an Orthodox Christian when I am out of my area and receive but that's another story. I have adopted this way of receiving--in the hand--though it took awhile for me to adapt to it because I can hear the Lord asking me why I would dare touch Him covered as I am with the leprosy of sin. I think my attitude change came about because of my participation in being an Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion. If I were touching the Lord and giving Him to others it made little sense to refuse to receive Him myself the other way. BTW I did not seek this ministry, but was sought out, as the then-pastor said, to be an example for others. I was embarrassed at his statement then and am still, but that's a second story.

I admit I am concerned about the way people so thoughtlessly receive in the hand and toss the Lord off like a dorito, but that is poor catechesis done by those with little faith themselves IMHO. So I have retained this ITH practice and have been advised by my spiritual father to continue to show reverent behavior as a model, though sometimes I think I'm wasting my time. But I am not responsible for the way others act. I am responsible for me. I am responsible for the example I give. I am responsible for my faith-gift and its development as a continuous communion with Christ, both prior to and after my reception of Him in the Eucharist.

I've also distributed Holy Communion in the mouth and find it something that gives me the willies. People don't stick out their tongues, don't open their mouths, and often leave a wad of saliva on my fingers. YUCK. In my youth, the priests would loudly tell someone to tilt their heads back farther, stick their tongues out more, and/or open their mouths wider. I don't know anyone bold enough to do that today for fear of offending someone--that seems to be the gravest sin, offending someone: the attitude that everyone's practice is their own business and not to be questioned.

Remember that the Lord sees into the heart. The most ritual-perfect person may be empty, a whited sepulchre, inside. No one can know that but He Who sees the most hidden things of men.

Master, give each of us Your grace to receive You as worthily as we can given the limitations each of us have. And have mercy as we come to You for the healing, cleansing, and conversion of heart that only You can perfect when we receive You whole and entire. AMEN.

In Christ,

BOB