www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Do Most EC Converts Eventually Join The Orthodox Church ?

I know I'm asking a controversial question here, but I've noticed a pattern on more than one site where several converts have in a few years gone from RC-Protestant or Other to EC to Orthodox. The impression I've gotten is, that they find there particular EC Church to be not quite what they envisioned, and after a couple years join the Orthodox Church.

Dear Lawrence,

All the EC converts I have known have become Orthodox and there have been a few of them.

When they, nicely and respectfully, ask me when I'm going to join, I, nicely and respectfully, tell them that I am a cradle EC!

Alex

In my experience about half or so. One of our more prominent posters here, Subdeacon Adam (DeVille) is one who "stayed" in the UGCC - if I recall correctly he converted from Anglicanism. Since I didn't actively practice my own faith for much of my life I often consider myself a convert as well.

But don't they know they are already "Orthodox in Communion with Rome"?

This can be a very important discussion topic. As an EC that puts a lot of energy into growing my own parish, it would be important to know the reasons why converts leave for Orthodox Parishes not in communion with Rome. What do Orthodox Parishes provide that Eastern Catholic Parishes don't?

If you are thinking about leaving an Eastern Catholic parish for an Orthodox parish, or if you have already done so, please tell us your reasons for leaving?

An outsider's opinion:

I think that coverts to Byzantine Catholicism have read and been told that these Churches are authentically Eastern in their Liturgy and Spirituality, that there should be no liturgical differences between the Eastern Orthodox Churches and their Eastern Catholic counterparts. This simply isn't the case.

Examples: I know of no Orthodox parish that serves a Saturday Evening Liturgy (Vesperal or otherwise), yet this seems to be the norm now in the EC parishes. Orthodox parishes generally preserve at least some part of the daily cycle of services (Vespers and/or Matins) along with the Divine Liturgy, yet it is rare to find Greek Catholic parishes that do so. There are many other things that could be mentioned.

What it comes down to is this: do these EC converts value being Eastern more than being Catholic? If so, they are likely to become Orthodox eventually. But if an Eastern Catholic views his being in communion with the Pope as nonnegotiable, he will remain Eastern Catholic.

Fr David Straut

Lawrence,

I don't think your question is "controversial." People on this forum are usually happy to share their own stories, whether or not these involve a progression from something else to EC and thence to EO. Controversy would imply that some of us are contending the "rightness" or "wrongness" of such a move, and I don't think this is the case.

I am one of several here who have gone from RC to EC and are satisfied at this time that this is where God wants us to be.

One of my goals as a deacon in the UGCC is to reach out to both RCs and EOs and help both to realize that being EC does NOT necessarily mean accepting Eastern rituals and ceremonies while rejecting the theology behind them. I think if everyone can accept just that much, we'll have more mutual understanding and fewer "conversions."


Peace,
Deacon Richard

And isn't it also true that many such converts go from one jurisdiction to another because the last one was/wasn't <fill in the blank> enough? Ben Lomond is a good example of this.

Dear Friends,

The "why" EC converts join Orthodoxy is a fascinating issue.

One could discuss why cradle EC's become Orthodox and that would potentially be quite the separate issue.

Fr. David is quite right and the reason for EC converts becoming Orthodox has alot to do with why they became Eastern Catholic in the first place.

The primary reason would indeed be that they fell in love with "all things Eastern" and then came to see in Orthodoxy a more authentic Eastern liturgical practice - although not in all cases. Those EC's in my experience who became Orthodox tended to join ROCOR or Patriarchal Parishes for precisely this reason. The same people tended to disparage some other Orthodox jurisdictions as "not meeting the standard." This is also why there are Orthodox Christians who join ROCOR coming, as they do, from other jurisdictions.

Another reason is that a problem develops in the parish that has precious little to do with matters of faith and people just move down the street to the Orthodox parish. This is happening in one parish in the U.S. in my Church that I am aware of and it certainly is a help to those people that the same ethnic-based Orthodox Church is just a few blocks away. Don't know if they are actually "converting" to Orthodoxy, but they are certainly attending there. Another thing is that in a number of our parishes, both Catholic and Orthodox, there are people attending who don't formally belong to the Church of their parish.

I know members of our UGCC who have become Orthodox here because they feel "more at home" in an Orthodox parish which could mean more than one thing.

There are also UAOC parishes in western Ukraine who have joined the UGCC for the same reason - they are in an uncanonical state, they don't want to belong to the Moscow Patriarchate and don't like the UOC-KP.

So to find a bona fide "convert" who joined Orthodoxy from actual conviction rather than the "pull of circumstances" is, in my Ukrainian Catholic/Orthodox tradition, not all that common.

It is probably closer to the truth to say that Ukrainians "don't know the difference between an EC or an Orthodox parish - they know, however, the difference between a Ukrainian and a non-Ukrainian parish."

And if the Ukrainian Orthodox parish in their neighbourhood is markedly "more Ukrainian" and/or if there is trouble in their UGCC parish, more likely than not you will find people "going over" to the Orthodox parish. (Whether they actually become members in a formal sense or not is another question - but for a UGCC member to join the Ukrainian Orthodox Church here is so easy and painless . . . they just have to go to confession, state their intention, recite the Creed sans Filioque and promise to remain faithful to Orthodoxy).

Some years back when we had a bishop who had alienated a number of people, I actually overheard him speaking with our Orthodox bishop who approached him during our conversation to say, "Now tell me, what is going on with you (Ukrainian Catholics) that I'm getting so many of your flock?"

This is why when I have the privilege of reading the posts of so many well-informed members of this forum about why they would or would not join this or that jursdiction on the grounds of faith and liturgy, I wonder if my Church is from another planet . . .

Alex

as to one poster: once upon a time the GO parish in Chattanooga had Saturday evening vespers. I know, I attended (albeit it was in the 1980's).
as to convert ECs moving to Constantinople, I am a reclaimant EC,and have been since 1975. perhaps the way ECs have been historically mistreated by Latin prelates send converts packing. do I need bring up Father Toth here?
Much Love,
Jonn

Alex,

I certainly can attest to that one. In my parish, we have several EO members who wouldn't dream of going to one of the EO churches in our area--simply because they aren't Ukrainian! Another lady goes to the OCA most Sundays because she knows she's supposed to, but always feels more at home when she's with us.

Back on topic, though, I think many people convert for external/practical reasons--if they want to be honest with themselves--and then cite ideological reasons as a way of justifying their choice. (Come to think of it, that's also how a lot of schisms get started!)


Peace,
Deacon Richard

I don't exactly match up with the topic as the question is posed, but I visited a couple of different Ukrainian Catholic churches (St. Joseph and St. Nicholas, both in Chicago) and read up on it when I was looking to see where I would fit in.

Please take note that this is not the Ukrainian Orthodox point of view. I know of no on in my parish who would go to a Ukrainian Catholic parish. When my family is out of town and visiting another city without a Ukrainian Orthodox parish we go to another Orthodox church but never to a Ukrainian Catholic parish.
This has been mentioned before that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada has had problems with Ukrainians Catholics trying to go to communion in our churches which is not allowed.

I'm formally cradle RC. I fell in love with the Christian East many years ago and decided that I'd rather live out my days in that capacity and made a formal jurisdiction change a few years back.

For a while, I also started attending weekday vespers at a local OCA parish. (They had a wednesday evening vespers service - I imagine the wednesday evening was to appeal to the evangelicals and other protestants that they were attracting). I liked it there - and they made me feel very welcome and longed for me to "make my journey complete." My local EC parish did not always have liturgy on days marked as "Simple" or "Solemn" on the calendar, so I would attend over at the OCA parish. It was wonderful - and the idea of fully "swimming the bosporus" crossed my mind a few times.

However, as much as I was in love with a much fuller expression of "Easterndom" over at the OCA parish than I was getting at my EC parish, there was one thing I could not do - and that was renouncing anything Catholic.

As Fr David mentioned earlier, "it was non negotiatble."

Once you've been exposed to the full catalog of the beauty and treasures of the Christian East, it can be difficult to go back to an Eastern Catholic parish that only celebrates a portion of it. But, I'll take the portion I'm offered and remain catholic - and trust in my Creator that the path He has set for me is the correct one for me to follow.

In the case of a convert from Roman Catholicism I can understand the desire to remain part of the Catholic Church. I do however find it puzzling when former Protestants and other non-Catholics become Eastern Catholic first, before becoming Orthodox.

I truly don't mean to offend anyone, but in all honesty, when I hear many converts speak of there expectations, I begin to wonder why they didn't just join one of the Orthodox Churches.

Dear Lawrence,

You've hit on a VERY interesting point here.

Many Protestants become EC first because of their background which has taught them to see in RC, EO and High Anglicans the same sort of "Catholic heresy" and ritualism.

Evangelicals often don't see the difference between the two and so equate both East and West as "Catholic" together.

Once Protestants begin to actually like Eastern Christianity and want to become one with it, they join the Catholic branch as this is more familiar to them as a result of the way the historic invective against the Church was formulated in their tradition.

It is only later that the "details" regarding the differences between EC and the Orthodox become fully evident to them and so if their desire is to become as truly "Eastern Christian" they may wish to join Orthodoxy (and often a jurisdiction like the ROCOR).

You've really made my day!

Alex