www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Do Most EC Converts Eventually Join The Orthodox Church ?

Unfortunately, you can find this in many Orthodox churches too. :-(

Alice

Hi Alice,
I assume you're referring to ethnic insularity and the language battle. You know, I could deal with insularity as long as latinizations aren't an issue, and English is the dominant language. I don't go to church to make friends. To me fellowship is the icing on the cake and, but it is completely optional.

I wonder in the case of church closings if non-RC converts are more likely to go Orthodox? Do RC converts tend to return to the Latin church in those instances?

To me personally it does not matter as long as I understand what I or the priest is saying.
Now I know a little bit of Greek (actually the sentences we say in Greek at Church that is all) - but I do feel very uncomfortable when a priest or the choral start to "show off" their Greek language skill and leave the believers behind.

While you may claim that it is some kind of "ethnic battles" I see it as a case in which most people who have the same mother tongue wishing to pray using that language they feel is most comfortable with.

I know Hebrew as my L2, and English as my L3 and I speak both very well (Hebrew almost Native-Like) - and still I don't think I would feel too comfortable using any of the latter two as my language of choice when praying.

Because one's expectations will only be fulfilled or found lacking through one's own experience.

I was a convert from protestantism to the Melkite Church back in 1994. I became Orthodox on the day before the feast of Theopany in 2007. After a period of several years of reading, praying, studying and searching, I came to believe that there was a real difference between being Orthodox and being EC and I came to believe that being in communion with Rome (really under the authority of Rome) was not compatible with true Orthodoxy, so I became Orthodox and I've never been happier.

Joe

Lawrence, I became Eastern Catholic (Melkite) for a few reasons.

1.) Based on my initial reading of Church history and apologetic works, I thought a good case could be made for the claims of Rome.

2.) The local Melkite parish was a great parish made up of nearly all converts and the local Greek Orthodox Church was much more ethnically focused. It was a nice parish with nice folks, but I was afraid of never being fully accepted.

3.) The Melkite priest was very persuasive and charismatic and was a great spiritual father to me at that time.

But eventually I came to believe that the papal claims to universal jurisdiction and infallibility were erroneous as well as the western teaching on the filioque and other doctrines. And I found also that going back and forth between Latin and Melkite churches and spirituality made me spiritually schizophrenic.

Joe

Joe

Thanks for your detailed response. I hope you don't mind me asking, but in your opinion, was your Melkite parish perhaps too Latinized in it's theology ? I know a few decades ago there were some Melkite parishes that would be considered very Latinized by many people today, but I thought that had all changed in recent years.

Dearest Indigo,

Forgive me for not responding sooner. Yes, I meant the ethnic insularity.

In Christ,
Alice

Lawrence, that is a great question and the answer is interesting, I think, and complicated. I was a member at St. Ignatios of Antioch Melkite Greek Catholic Church in Augusta, GA. Father Daniel Munn brought me into the Church and was my spiritual father for many years. He was a truly beautiful man. He passed away suddenly in the summer of 2006. Since that time, the parish has been going through somewhat of an identity crisis. Not a serious crisis, but one where the clergy (there are two other very fine priests and three deacons I believe) and the laity are (or were) trying to imagine what life would be like at St. Ignatios now that Father Munn was gone (Father Munn was a huge presence and was the founder of the Church).

I was there for some of the parish meetings after Father Munn's death and I saw the tension that was in the air. The parish is basically made up of two groups of folks. Almost all of the members are converts from some form of protestantism. We also had several folks who were Latin rite but fed up with the Novus Ordo (and the whole VII culture surrounding it). We also had a small number of charismatic catholics. We also had a large number of ex-Anglicans who converted and founded the Church with Fr. Munn when he converted (Father was previously an Anglican priest). The Anglican to Melkite folks tended to be more the party of"Orthodox in communion with Rome," and the Roman catholics there tended to be the "We are Catholic under Rome with a different Liturgy." Publicly and officially the parish was hardly latinized at all. However, when Fr. Miguel (who succeeded Fr. Munn) held sessions concerning our identity as Melkites, there was some tension. I confess too, having participated in these meetings, that some of my own remarks provoked a little anxiety. I was definitely of the Orthodox in communion with Rome party. Not everyone was happy with that point of view, though
the clergy there were (and I assume still are) strong supporters of the Zoghby initiative.

I am going to confess something rather personal here, but I think perhaps it will be helpful. After Father Munn's sudden passing I was in a state of shock, not knowing what to think or do. For several years I had considered Orthodoxy and had brought my concerns to Father Munn and our other priests many times, but I just couldn't bring myself to leave yet. I did meet with an Orthodox priest a couple of years before Father's death and I discussed my concerns with him (He is now my spiritual Father and chrismated me and my family into the Orthodox Church). After Father Munn passed way and after I saw that my own understanding of being an Eastern Catholic was meeting a good deal of resistance from folks in the parish, I decided that it was time to go. Some time before Father's passing, I had already become convinced that the filioque addition was wrong and heretical, that the papal doctrines were wrong, and that we couldn't truly be who we are in communion with Rome. Also, I'll frankly admit, the vocational options seemed greater for me in Orthodoxy than in the Melkite Church. Several years ago I had corresponded with my Bishop, explaining that I felt a possible call to the priesthood. This was after the ordination of a deacon in Boston, I believe, to the priesthood. I was told in no uncertain terms that ordination of married men was not possible and that there would be no future ordinations of married men in the Melkite Church. This one instance was an exception.

When I did convert, I was not consciously considering becoming a priest. But after my Chrismation, the realization that this was possible planted itself in my soul. Also, even if I don't become a priest there is plenty of need for deacons and since our Melkite church had three deacons (for a congregation of about 60 people) there didn't seem to be much need for me to serve there.

When I finally decided to leave and went to the Antiochian Orthodox Church to meet the priest, I had come to realize that the only thing that kept me from leaving the Melkite Church years ago was fear of disappointing Father Munn. Also, my wife ( a cradle Catholic) was not ready yet. When I finally did leave the Melkite Church to join the Orthodox Church, my wife was ready to come with me.

I only went back to St. Ignatios once since our conversion to Orthodoxy. I was warmly received by my friends there though someone took the opportunity to point out the "moral errors" of Orthodoxy and how it was unfair that they couldn't commune there but I could commune at their Church (I quickly informed him that I could not commune in the Melkite church). But the meeting was relatively frictionless. Both priests gave me full support in my journey and I bless them for that and keep them all in my prayers along with my spiritual father and parish priest.

Joe

Joe,

Thank you for sharing your story with us. I can relate to your experiences.

Mike

Well said, Deacon Richard. It is difficult to apply "trend analysis" to something often so personal, and sometimes often familial and emotional.

Your experience is similar to mine - I frequently see Ukrainian Orthodox folks at our Liturgies who will even approach Communion knowing darn well whose Church they are in when there are Antiochian or OCA churches close that they may have never visited while living there for years. While Halia is correct in the letter of the law, in the diaspora often it is not followed.

And these sorts of movements or behaviors can also be exacerbated by other tangential cultural developments - Metropolitan Onufriy's recent statements that the Ukrainians deserved the Holodomor is a case in point that will not likely endear many prominent Ukrainians in the diaspora to the MP or MP-related churches.

That is phyletism, and that is unfortunate.

Yes indeed, it is a heresy.

This is true across a lot of the Eastern Catholic churches in the US. I have spoken with a number of people from various jurisdictions (Ruthenian and UGCC mainly) who are hitting a brick wall as far as clerical positions go. I'm not sure what the "plan" is, but clergy age and current seminary numbers seem troublesome to me.

One should be careful when discussing matters of vocations - there are questions of suitability of candidates in the eyes of the hierarchs or delegated presbyteral councils that screen candidates. One only has to look at issues of clerical abuse to see that perhaps insufficient screening was done in the past.

If you are referring to celibacy, the UGCC has several current married candidates in multiple seminaries in North America preparing for the priesthood for American eparchies; this is not a hindrance again if the candidate is accepted by the bishop in question. All of the current American hierarchy within the UGCC have ordained married men to the priesthood.