www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Do Most EC Converts Eventually Join The Orthodox Church ?

Dear Halia,

Yes, you are right. This is not Church policy.

In my experience, I know several Orthodox Christians who ONLY attend an EC parish. They have never come "into communion with Rome" and they never attend any other parish.

There are others, usually recent immigrants from Ukraine, who have no real idea about church policies or real differences between the Churches and who attend, sometimes this one, sometimes the other. When you ask them their Church identity, it is always "Orthodox."

EC's like myself will go wherever we are welcome. In fact, I have known no more ecumenical people than a number of our Orthodox priests. To give you but one example, during lunch with one such priest, the topic of St Josaphat came up. I immediately tried to change the subject of the conversation and he asked me, "What's the matter with you? Aren't you an EC?"

I told him, "Yes, but that's a whole controversial topic even among EC's and we don't have to get into that . . ."

He then proceeded to scold me roundly . . . he even added that in a future united Church, he foresaw that St Josaphat could be "locally venerated in parishes where his cult is established."

After I picked myself up from the restaurant floor, I congratulated him and said some nice things about Orthodox Saints . . .

In fact, it was really only with the coming of your new Metropolitan (an excellent hierarch and theologian) that your Church has "clamped down" so to speak about the Communion rules (as it should).

I'm just pointing out what I've seen occur "on the ground" with respect to our people. In my family, which is both Catholic and Orthodox from way back, we would only attend each other's Churches and we still visit them during Pascha. Orthodox or Catholic, we wouldn't think of attending a "non-Ukrainian Church."

One Orthodox uncle of mine refused to attend a Ukrainian Catholic parish until, one day, when he was in a Russian parish he heard the anathemas pronounced and renewed against the Kozak Hetman Ivan Mazeppa.

He hasn't had a problem with my parish ever since . . .

Alex

I've known several Protestants who've come to my EC parish and stayed. I also know some Orthodox who attend my EC parish (note that we do not consider this as a "conversion"). I've also known some former members of my parish who now are laymen, readers, deacons, even presbyters in various Orthodox jurisdictions.

All that said, I'd say the only reasons to go from one to the other are essentially dogmatic. E.g.:

- do you believe that the Latin pnevmatological theology is so distorted by the word "filioque" that it does not teach the truth about the Trinity and that it harms the Latin Church's spiritual life?

- do you believe that the Latin expression of "original sin" - in its own terms, as it really believes them and not as you might have read in some tract - really distorts the truth about man and again harms the Latin Church's spiritual life?

- finally (and this in my view is the kicker), do you believe that an idea - that the Bishop of Rome has a special mission to serve as "a common center of Christianity" which can "secure a clear voice [for Christianity] in the confusion of ideologies" because it was established by God as infallible - non ex consensu Ecclesiae - is such an idea not only exegetically unwarranted but also a destructive to the authentic ecclesiology and life of the Church?

These (and variants thereof that we all know) in my view are the only reasons to "convert".

[quotes from then-Cardinal Ratzinger's book "Called to Communion"]

It is not usually the Catholic custom to make noise about those who come to us from Eastern Orthodoxy. It's in bad taste (a human being is not an animated trophy) and ecclesiologically the difference is not so great as to warrant a ballyhoo. This does not, of course, mean that no one ever comes to us, or that they are not welcome.

In addition, people are best given space and time to "settle in" to whatever Church they have joined without the added pressure of publicity.

Fr. Serge

I think what typically leads converts to the Orthodox Churches is the belief that Eastern Catholics must become fully Orthodox in all things. I believe ultimately many reach the conclusion that one cannot be fully Orthodox and remain in the Catholic Church.

The main thing for me was probably that I felt that I would not fit in as a convert in the Ukrainian Catholic church. Different story in the Orthodox church.

The question about conversion is quite interesting:

I was not raised with any form of religion and in my teens I became Catholic, whilst my family is not. I became Roman Catholic, but less than a year after my baptism I discovered the Eastern Church, and have been involved with the Eastern-rite since then, barring a Latin hiatus after the RDL came into existence.

The problem for me in wondering whether to be Orthodox is that liturgically and spiritually I have everything in common with the Orthodox, yet canonically and jurdicially I am in union with the Pope of Rome.

I would not consider leaving the Catholic Church, but I mean the universal Church. I think that a visible head is instrinsic to my spiritual understanding of the divine hierarchy. I have other problems with Orthodoxy that are outside the scope of this posting.

I would sooner go to the most wretched Novus Ordo than become Orthodox. I find an Eastern Catholic parish troubling sometimes when Eastern Catholics speak so cruelly of their Latin counterparts, as if the Latin Church has brought nothing but grief to Eastern Chrisendom: there are two lungs.

The more I become involved with the Eastern Church the more I see why a supreme pontiff is so essential. I find the ecclesiastical and/or ethnic confusion in Orthodoxy to be such a paramount distraction for my soul that I could never enter into what I perceive to be a religious form of anarcho-syndicalism. It's unfortunate that the Second Vatican Council did not accomplish its intended aim: to define what Vatican I was actually saying.

But as the two Churches slowly discuss a shift in ecclesiology maybe this question will one day become outmoded. Sadly the excesses of Papal power can prove destructive, as Paul VI showed.

I think a great deal of Byzantine Christians that do convert to Orthodoxy do so either out of frustration with their parish, eparchy or pastor, or for intellectual reasons. I have met few Eastern Catholics who became Orthodox because they truly believed this was where the Holy Spirit was leading them (as Dn. Richard mentioned). Two converts from my parish joined because of the sex scandals in the Catholic Church, hardly a call from the Paraclete, and now they complain and gripe just as much but about Orthodoxy instead of Catholicism. Many Eastern Catholics have the illusion that the grass is greener in Orthodoxy, or is purer, which being made up of humans is simply not the case. It is tempting for a Catholic who constantly see the Catholic Church bending over backwards to appease every contemporary fashion, whereas the Orthodox remain solid and grounded without compromising their Truth.

I believe that Eastern-rite Catholicism/Orthodox in union with the See of Rome is still the foremost conceptual framework by which to restore true unity to our "sister Churches." Just because Unia has outlived its Brest model doesn't mean it can't have a new conceptual framework on which to establish itself.

-Predánije

This topic is so "iffy" in that it can vary so much from individual to individual. Both the EC and Orthodox churches get some converts who are wonderful, dedicated people. But beware. There are those dabblers who will never find the perfection they seek this side of heaven. Some rush from church to church in search of the next novelty. Others hate where they were, hate where they are, and will likely hate where they are going, eventually. I have known a few whose leaving was the Latin church's gain, and everyone else's loss.

I was born a cradle Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic. I'm 41 now, and I can honestly say that for that the last twenty years I was on the fence between EC/EO.

For me it just seemed like becoming Orthodox was the right thing to do, almost like a rite of passage.

To me being a Melkite is enjoying both worlds of Catholic and Orthodox Church - to be honest it is like having the opportunity to learn "both" traditions and "both" teachings and discover how silly the division is while the spirit is ONE.

I am in LOVE with the Catholic Church - and I am in LOVE with the Orthodox Church - and believe you me, it is like standing between two beautiful sister twins debating in no avail with myself whom should I take as a wife.

Well Said!

Though, I wonder how many Orthodox and Roman Catholics think that EC's are just trying to have their cake and eat it too?

Dear Mike,

How so? Your comment is both interesting and provocative.

Alex

Lawrence it goes the other way too. There are Protestants who become Orthodox and then find out its not always what its cracked up to be and then become Eastern Catholics or as I like to phrase it "Orthodox in Communion with Rome."
Stephanos I

Alex,

I agree so much with what Eli posted:



When I read this out loud to myself it stuck me that people outside of Eastern Catholicism might think that we are indecisive or confused about our identity, and only looking for the best of both worlds. That is, there are many who probably think we want our Cake (Orthodoxy) and want to Eat it too (Communion with Rome).

However, they don't understand the burden of Eastern Catholics, which is to be a bridge for East and West. Unfortunately for us, bridges are built to be walked all over.

So Eastern Catholics may indeed have their Cake and eat it too, but we are the test dummies on how reunion of East and West will occur, and at times that really is no party and is why we are probably losing more members to Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy then gaining.

Mike

Shlomo Lkhoolkhoon,

What many should also remember is that Eastern Christianity does not equate to being Byzantine.

If you look at the non-Byzantine numbers you will see the trend seems to run people converting to Oriental Orthodoxy or the Church of the East, and then becoming Catholic.

For many in this catagory, I think they join the Catholic Church because it can provide the support system that is necessary for Church growth, and even though Eastern Catholics are as beseigned as their counter-parts (excepting the Maronites) they have a billion plus group that can provide a very important life-line.

Poosh BaShlomo Lkhoolkhoon,
Yuhannon

I wonder if the scarcity of EC churches may have something to do with converts in particular joining Orthodox churches when their EC church dies out.

If,God forbid,my church were to cease to exist my imperfect solution at this point,would be to attend a RC church for communion and attend an Orthodox church as often as possible. If this were not possible I'd really have to do serious soul searching to see if Eastern theology is more important for my spiritual growth than being united with Rome. At this point both points are important to me.I don't want to part from Rome,but I might if my spiritual health were at stake.

The neighboring EC churches in my region are extremely ethnically insular,and/or extraordinarily latinized (I completely respect Latin devotions and theology, but they do not nourish me, and if it were what I needed spiritually I'd have been lead to become an RC and not an EC.) Some of these churches still have, and even insist on non-English speaking priests.Ethnic battles are absolutely not my calling,and would be a huge waste of my time. Is it possible that former EC converts have faced this dilemma.