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Erp, I did not mean to imply if Fr. Maciel is a sexual deviant or not. I'm not following this story closely. Just in case he is or I mean..for those who are .

I know you intend to be merciful here, but let's be clear: holding a priest to the standard of NOT molesting children or ANYONE for that matter is not too high a standard.

I have seen first hand the damage molestation can do to an individual and a family. My young cousin was kidnapped and molested by a man at a hotel where all of us were staying while in North Carolina attending our great-grandmother's funeral. (One of the reasons I never let my kids roam in a hotel.) Since that terrible day some thirty years ago, we have all witnessed his pattern of self-destruction, with multiple arrests, a broken marriage and relationships, drug and alcohol abuse, lies, failed jobs and careers, etc etc while his brother, on the other hand is a successful executive. He is now serving a six-month sentence, when he faced 10 years.

And I won't even get into the effect this has had on his parents, brother, grandparents, cousins, extended family, and friends.

All of it rooted in that one dreadful night at a hotel in North Carolina when a man committed that terrible act. Any man who would do such a thing deserves the lower reaches of hell. (Not to say that he is beyond the reach of mercy, but it is especially heinous.) If that man is a bishop, priest or deacon, who knows, through pastoral training and experience, the destructive power of this act and is also placed in the position of PROTECTING the flock of Christ, how much more will the Lord call him to account for his horrible misdeeds?

Leadership is a lightning rod for temptation, no doubt. We should pray for the health and salvation of Father Marcel, but especially, if the allegations are true, that he publicly repent before he reaches the dread judgement seat of Christ.

Gordo

As a Mexican I welcome this decission, it's clear that this pope is really doing something.

About the probable deviant behaviour of Fr. Maciel I do not know but there are clear testimonies. What is sure is that Fr. Maciel actively collaborated with the government, there was an attempt to create priests who would serve the PRI state, they had a leading role through the "Priests for the People" organization, teaching socialist ideology and collaboration. I see nothing "conservative" here.

Gordo,
We may disagree on somethings but this one we do not.

It is also important to note that Paedophilia is only the molestation, or urges to do so, of prepubescent children. When these cases involve children that have past the age of puberty it is no longer paedophilia but something else.

The term Paedophile is not used in law here in Australia. The offence is listed as sexual abuse. The age of consent is listed as 16yrs and Sex under that age is illegal. If the person has some reponsibility such as an employer or teacher and the young person is under 18 yrs and over 16 yrs, then Police will also bring charges.

Frequently sexual abuse is accompanied with emotional abuse (almost always), physical abuse and may involve neglect issues. For the very young there may be life long damage done to their bodies, as well as psycholigcal damage. It is never just sex. The impact also is experienced in the child's family and freinds. It is certainly not love of children.

ICXC
NIKA

David,

I believe the term you are looking for is Ephebophilia. Is is sometimes called hebephelia as well. It is used by the psychological/ scientific community to describe those who are attracted to pubescent or post-pubescent children under the age of consent (which varies by culture). Pedophilia is an attraction to pre-pubescent children. Then there is heterosexuality, homosexuality, and asexuality. I think that covers all 5 categories of sexual attraction. Then there are those who play mix and match with them as well.

Hi,

Well, it seems to me the actions from the Holy See are prudent.

If you read carefully, the statement says the investigations are being dropped, obviously because if they continued, chances are they would end up in a conviction.

Given his age and health, any penalties against Fr. Maciel would probably have the same effect as the voluntary penance recommended by Rome.

I do not particularly like the Legionaries, I think the are a rather elitist group.

I do know, however, they have a tendency to be on the orthodox side of things and a great number of young people all around the world have found a meaningful relationship with God and with the Church because of this Insitute's ministry.

I do know, however, at least one ex-seminarian who now has a lukewarm relationship with the Church because of his experience in the Legionaries' seminary.

I think it is wrong to idealize and idolize anyone. I would criticize this about the Legionaries regardless of the accusations against Fr. Maciel. I criticize this even about the Salesians, and I do admire "Don Bosco" quite a bit.

I hope out of all this, the Legionaries come out purified. Yes, most of the times purification hurts, but it is good and comes from God.

Shalom,
Memo

Read "Vows of Silence" by Jason Berry.

It may be something more than that. I may be that John Paul II was Father Maciel's confessor and knew that there had been a true redemption from the kind of demonic sexual oppressions that allow for unremitant sexual sin, and that the pope, as any good Catholic, knows that the Christ forgives and forgets sins as though they had never been there in His divine absolution, so that in a very real Catholic sense, Father Maciel may, at this moment, indeed be innocent, washed in the Blood of the Lamb.

Why is that suggestion never put foreward, I wonder?

Only the most negative suppositions get a hearing while our Catholic tradition is ignored. Why is that?

Eli

Dear Eli,

But is it not Catholic tradition for such priests to be canonically removed or even defrocked?

They can repent and be reconciled, of course . . .

But is it not dangerous to keep such people in their posts?

Is the Church not asking for real additional trouble?

Alex

I had never heard of him, but I have read some stories after seeing this thread. Very sad and disturbing.

I read this editorial [ncronline.org] today.

Andrew

That is a terrible editorial. Unless there is canonical due process: formal charges, a trial, judgment and sentencing there can be no determination of innocence or guilt.

That editorial presumes and claims outright guilt, and that is inaccurate. Also false presumption is an objectively sinful act, and since we do not distinguish between badder and worser sin, then the editor may be no better spiritually than Father Maciel is, in fact.

What the Vatican has said is that there is sufficiently disturbing testimony to ask an 86 year old priest, already retired from any leadership position, to retire even more deeply into a life of private prayer. And that is ALL it says. That editorial is hideously irresponsible and dissembling on the face of it.

One can only hope that the Vatican has sent a clear message to American bishops in the process; something greatly to be desired.

Eli

What Catholic tradition are you talking about? Where have you been for the last six years?

You've engaged a bit of dissembling on your own here as well. I believe I will leave you to it.

My point stands on its own moral merit. There has not been any public suggestion that John Paul II knew something of Fr. Maciel that none of the rest of us know, and that Fr. Maciel, if fully repentent and fully and finally absolved and living chastely, is not only innocent but has exercised heroic virtue. No one has yet suggested that part of Catholic tradition, at least not where I have seen it.

Eli

Dear Eli,

What is eating you?

How have I engaged in dissembling here? Please let me know.

You are quite combative and seem to be lacking in the basic fundamentals of civil discourse.

As for Catholic tradition, I did not know that six years' time is what defines it.

Clergy involved in abusive situations have traditionally been defrocked. This is how it is in the Eastern Churches.

The fact that your Church in the U.S. has chosen to move abusive priests to other parishes or even promote them does not inspire confidence, especially on the side of the laity.

Perhaps the Moderator here could rule on your reprehensible manner of conversing with those who disagree with you.

I, and I understand others, certainly have no wish to engage you in any discourse from now on.

Alex

I have to make a statement regarding Orthodox Catholic's opening, Elitoft complaints are starting to come in regarding the way you are posting. Your point can be made without the "combative" or "caustic" nature of the style you are chosing to write in. I would advise you to re-examinie how you post as to lead to less problems or difficulties. This is not the only thread that the complaints have been made regarding your posts.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator/Moderator