www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Do Most EC Converts Eventually Join The Orthodox Church ?

That belief does not sound all that controversial to me.

CIX!

A good and important question, Lawrence. I wonder if more converts depart the UGCC or the BCC for Holy Orthodoxy?

John

I've never done an actual study, so I have no figures to cite, and that's why I'm hoping we get more input on this specific matter. As for my view from cyberspace and a couple other sources, the impression I've gotten is that the Melkite Church is by the most popular choice for converts, and yet even here I've heard of several moving on to the Orthodox Church. Perhaps Father Ambrose could give us an idea what EC Churches the several converts to Orthodoxy, he's known, have come from.

AFAIK, the stats I have seen from several jurisdictions do not make any delineation between Eastern Catholics and Roman Catholics as far as conversions. From personal experience, I have met only a very few that came from Eastern Catholicism, and then only on such internet venues as this forum.

It seems that cyberspace may make it appear that the situation is much larger than what it is actually.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

I think your belief has definite empirical evidence.

I made it clear that I had no actual figures, and that it was just the impression I had gotten from various forums and other sources. Reading through this forum, it would appear that others, including a couple in Holy Orders, have been getting the same impression.

Seems like another interesting topic on indulgences is running on thread too. perhaps a new thread on indulgences should be opened,so that this one isn't closed down for going off topic. Also,the new topic will have ample room to develop.

I don't know if it would have made a difference or not,but if it had been pointed out to me that Eastern Catholic churches are not the same as Orthodoxy for more reasons than the papacy and latinatizations, I might have thought harder about what I needed spiritually.
I was enthusiastically told that Eastern Catholicism is the exact same as Orthodoxy and that EC's are strongly encouraged to return to Orthodox traditions.We just happen to be under the Pope,and that's good because we're a model of the Early Church when Rome held an esteemed place above other bishops;a model of future unity. When union happens we'll seamlessly dissolve into Eastern Orthodoxy. So not true. I think we should put Catholic and not Greek, Byzantine,or Oriental first in our titles because it is more honest.Catholic Byzantines,Catholic Orientals,etc.
I don't blame the enthusiasts because they don't see the differences,and I didn't know what questions I needed to ask that would have made it clear to me. I didn't have a car so,I couldn't attend an Orthodox church at the same time to discover the differences myself. To be fair,I don't know whether or not attending both churches would have changed my decision to be an EC. And I reiterate again that I'm not anti-Roman Catholic nor do I romanticize the Orthodox churches.

This thread has been split, with the posts in the parallel discussion about purgatory being moved to a new thread: Purgatory & Orthodoxy

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The Folks that have departed the BCC for Holy Orthodoxy that I have encountered have left for ecclesiological reasons usually coupled with the belief that there is an ambiguity in Byzantine Greek Catholic Theology that does not exist in Orthodoxy.

According to Church teaching you were told the truth. If your parish or sui iuris Church is not living up to those statements, well that's another issue.


Canon 28 [intratext.com]

"A rite is the liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary patrimony, culture and circumstances of history of a distinct people, by which its own manner of living the faith is manifested in each Church sui iuris."

From Orientalium Ecclesiarum [vatican.va]

"All members of the Eastern Rite should know and be convinced that they can and should always preserve their legitimate liturgical rite and their established way of life, and that these may not be altered except to obtain for themselves an organic improvement. All these, then, must be observed by the members of the Eastern rites themselves. Besides, they should attain to on ever greater knowledge and a more exact use of them, and, if in their regard they have fallen short owing to contingencies of times and persons, they should take steps to return to their ancestral traditions."


Canon 903 [intratext.com]

The Eastern Catholic Churches have a special duty of fostering unity among all Eastern Churches, first of all through prayers, by the example of life, by the religious fidelity to the ancient traditions of the Eastern Churches, by mutual and better knowledge of each other, and by collaboration and brotherly respect in practice and spirit.

From Unitatis Redintegatio [vatican.va]

"The very rich liturgical and spiritual heritage of the Eastern Churches should be known, venerated, preserved and cherished by all. They must recognize that this is of supreme importance for the faithful preservation of the fullness of Christian tradition, and for bringing about reconciliation between Eastern and Western Christians."

"Where the authentic theological traditions of the Eastern Church are concerned, we must recognize the admirable way in which they have their roots in Holy Scripture, and how they are nurtured and given expression in the life of the liturgy. They derive their strength too from the living tradition of the apostles and from the works of the Fathers and spiritual writers of the Eastern Churches. Thus they promote the right ordering of Christian life and, indeed, pave the way to a full vision of Christian truth.

All this heritage of spirituality and liturgy, of discipline and theology, in its various traditions, this holy synod declares to belong to the full Catholic and apostolic character of the Church. We thank God that many Eastern children of the Catholic Church, who preserve this heritage, and wish to express it more faithfully and completely in their lives, are already living in full communion with their brethren who follow the tradition of the West."

From Orientale Lumen [vatican.va]

"It has been stressed several times that the full union of the Catholic Eastern Churches with the Church of Rome which has already been achieved must not imply a diminished awareness of their own authenticity and originality.(58) Wherever this occurred, the Second Vatican Council has urged them to rediscover their full identity, because they have "the right and the duty to govern themselves according to their own special disciplines. For these are guaranteed by ancient tradition, and seem to be better suited to the customs of their faithful and to the good of their souls."(59) These Churches carry a tragic wound, for they are still kept from full communion with the Eastern Orthodox Churches despite sharing in the heritage of their fathers. A constant, shared conversion is indispensable for them to advance resolutely and energetically towards mutual understanding."

The situation in this country is probably abnormal. Most of the ECs here have come into Orthodoxy. There are no EC churches to attend.

We share our parish church with the Antiochians and more than half their parish would be ex-Melkites and Maronites, as well as Copts.

Our own Russian parish has gathered the ex-Ukrainian Greek Catholics. However the UGCC is now sending a priest from Australia once or twice a year and they may possibly return to the UGCC or, as happens, live with divided loyalties.

Looks like no one is coming across the sea to NZ from Melbourne this coming year.

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Unfortunately due some difficulties we were unable to make Pastoral Visitation to your shores this year.

We apologize for all inconveniences it may cause. We did not forget you, you are always in our prayers!
We hope that in the first half of the next year (2009) we will be able to visit you.

May God bless you all!

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Created by: system. Last Modification: Thursday 02 of October, 2008 20:10:31 EST by felix.

I know of two who came from the Ruthenian church as adults, one was cradle and the other originally Latin rite. My parish also still has members born before the split, but that's different.

Mike, When I say 'not true' I mean that those things will not make us Orthodox,not that they're not being carried out.My parish is doing all of everything required by those canons and documents, and it is,hands down, the most "Eastern" parish in my state,but in my mind that actually fools you into thinking that EC's and Orthodoxy are the same.

Mike,if you check out my earlier post you'll see the reason why I believe that Eastern Catholicism is not and will never be truly Orthodox regardless of Orientale Lumen,Eastern canons,etc.

It may be, but in my town there is one family and one single person who used to attend our Ruthenian parish who became Orthodox (OCA) (the single person married an Orthodox subdeacon in that church). That's a total of five converts just from one small Ruthenian church to one small OCA church. In that sense it seems like a more significant number.