The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Frank O, BC LV, returningtoaxum, Jennifer B, geodude
6,176 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 members (1 invisible), 359 guests, and 102 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
by orthodoxsinner2, September 30
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,523
Posts417,632
Members6,176
Most Online4,112
Mar 25th, 2025
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,461
Likes: 1
Member
Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,461
Likes: 1
Unsound or not, it has happened. I remember Bishop +Tikhon of the OCA once made the statement publically that he wished more of his parishes celebrate as the Russian Catholic parishes of El Segundo and San Francisco.

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 580
M
Member
Member
M Offline
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 580
Quote
Unsound or not, it has happened. I remember Bishop +Tikhon of the OCA once made the statement publically that he wished more of his parishes celebrate as the Russian Catholic parishes of El Segundo and San Francisco.

Which Bishop Tikhon of the OCA? There are 2.

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,505
Member
Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,505
Originally Posted by Diak
Unsound or not, it has happened. I remember Bishop +Tikhon of the OCA once made the statement publically that he wished more of his parishes celebrate as the Russian Catholic parishes of El Segundo and San Francisco.
In another thread Griego Catolico says that "Saint Andrew's Russian Catholic Church in El Segundo, CA uses the Divine Liturgy books published by the OCA." wink

https://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/307478/Re:%20Russian%20Catholic%20Divine%20Li#Post307478

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 638
Likes: 1
Member
Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 638
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by Hieromonk Ambrose
Originally Posted by asianpilgrim
This is what I'm talking about re Antiochians in the Philippines.
Seems unsound. Of course, in the USA the Antiochians have one Novus Ordo parish, in Florida. It is indistinguishable in ethos, liturgy, music, and practice from any Cuban Catholic Novus Ordo parish

Bless Father!

Where is this?!

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,411
A
AMM Offline
Member
Member
A Offline
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,411

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,342
Likes: 1
Member
Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,342
Likes: 1
Shlomo Asian Pilgrim,

To go slightly off track, but not to far you should also look at Oriental Orthodoxy and the Church of the East. I think the numbers do prove to be interesting.

I will point out that the numbers are not exact, but they are of interest.

First, the Maronite Church 3.1 million with no counter-part amoungst Oriental Orthodoxy.

Coptic Church - 9 million Orthodox; 162,000 Catholic

Ethiopian Tewahedo Church - 35 million Orthodox; 223,000 Catholic

Armenian Church - 6 milion Orthodox; 375,000 Catholic

Syriac Church - 500,000 Orthodox; 132,000 Catholic

Syro-Malabar - 4 million Catholic; Church of the East counterpart no longer exists. The Mar Thoma Syrian Church claims 1 million members and is part of the Anglican Church.

Syro-Malankara - 2.5 milion Orthodox; 413,000 Catholic

Assyrian Church - 400,000 Church of the East; 419,000 Catholic.

Going from the Coptic Church which is resistant to re-union to the Indian Churches which are almost there, you have a great deal of interplay between them.

With the laity you find that they are not as concerned with who administers the Church as long as they are spiritually fulfilled. Even the Antiochene Orthodox feel that way.

Fush BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,028
A
Member
Member
A Offline
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,028
Originally Posted by AMM

At least, the altar is ad apsidem / ad orientem. That is a start. Better if they could start offering the Divine Liturgy of St. Gregory (a.k.a the "Tridentine" Mass in the vernacular and with a few Byzantinizations)

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,505
Member
Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,505
Originally Posted by Diak
Unsound or not, it has happened. I remember Bishop +Tikhon of the OCA once made the statement publically that he wished more of his parishes celebrate as the Russian Catholic parishes of El Segundo and San Francisco.

Hello Diak, (does that indicate a deacon or a sub-deacon?)

His Grace Bishop Tikhon has offered clarification... Umm, His Grace is noted for loquaciousness. smile

__________________________
Well, not quite.

A little background. The "Russian Catholic" idea was
born in the prayers of a Jesuit who became known as "Exarch Leonid
Fedorov.". There is a book with that title, probably available for
sale somewhere on line: it came out around the days before or during
Vatican II. Perhaps one could find it at the excellent
alibris.com This man, a Jesuit, and well-known in Petrograd
intellectual circles at the time,was convinced that if the Roman
Church were to initiate parishes, missions, etc., that followed the
Typikon exactly as the *****Russian***** Orthodox Church did,
unencumbered with the special baggage of the Unia and West
Ukrainian/Rusyn particularities, some of them deliberate
latinizations emanating from the "Congregation of Eastern
Rites", and clearly separate from and NOT responsible to that
congregations, then a considerable portion of the educated Russian
populace would be open to worshipping in those Churches and be more
open to the idea of union with Rome, conversion. Fedorov had a
terrible time with the forces of that Congregation of Eastern Rites,
especially when he insisted that Cardinal Scheptitski and what
Fedorov considered to be "Ukrainian" (his quotes) Catholics would
have NOTHING to do with such a mission and vice versa. Exarch Leonid
Fedorov was among the clergy who were tried and executed in Petrograd
along with our St. Benjamin and those with him. The Russian Catholic
mission and missionaries that were able to escaped to the Russian Far
East. There they resumed their activities and they even opened an
orphanage for Russian refuges in Harbin. I know some Russian Orthodox
now rather aging, who attended that orphanage. (I remember one
soprano, also Russian and from Harbin, who was somewhat competitive a
singer, who would regularly disparage a rival soprano who had gone to
school at the orphanage as "the Jesuits ruined her ear, that's why
she sings off-key." A Jesuit Priest NOT Russian but fluent in
Russian, was part of the Russian Catholic mission in China. When the
Communists took over China and masses of Russians from Harbin (and
some from Peking and Shanghai, as well) fled, the Harbinites first
ended up in a camp in the Phillippines, along with them that Jesuit
Priest, Fyodor Wilcox, was among them. The whole group went on to
Australia and many if not all went on to end up in California. I
believe St. John of Shanghai knew him rather well.

Father Wilcox became the Rector of the Saint Andrew's Russian
Catholic Church in El Segundo, Calif.

When I moved to California in 1972, he had an
assistant, a Father Tom, who was an Augustinian. That particular
parish (I've never ever been in a Russian Catholic Church in San
Francisco, though I've heard of one there) had a church building that
could not be distinguished from a Russian Orthodox Church in any way.
In fact, when the movie of Joseph Wambaugh's detective novel, The
Black Marble was being filmed, The scenes in Church were filmed at
St. Andrew's. Many scenes in the book too, place at our Holy Virgin
Mary Cathedral. The hero of the book was a Russian (Molokan)
detective from East Los Angeles. When Mr. Wambaugh was writing his
book he visited the cathedral often and I was the one (I was still a
Deacon) who was appointed to deal with him (in general I had to deal
with most movie and tv contacts then). I believe the first chapter
may be titled "Holy Virgin Mary Russian Orthodox Cathedral." I was
somewhat shocked when the book came out, because one scene in the
book involved a drunken Russian man who used some bad Russian
language out loud in Church when having a contretemps with some
parishioner or other about standing in the wrong place or something.
When the book was bought for a movie, though, we absolutely refused
to allow our choir to sing (of course) or to allow the Church to be
used as a movie set. It's definitely wrong for a Church consecrated
to be a Church to be converted to any other use, just as no Priest
should be allowed to "act as" a Priest in a movie.

The studio persuaded the choir of the Protection Church on Argyle
(Fr. Alexander Mileant, Rector) to sing in the movie, but they chose
the Russian Catholic Church for the actual location, since it looked
more authentically Russian Orthodox than the Church on Argyle (a
converted "Liberal Catholic" structure).

If you can find the movie on line at Amazon or whatever, you will be
able to see for yourself how well the Russian Catholics succeeded in
imitating the Orthodox.

There was some kind of festival at that Church once, and some of our
clergy went to it out of curiosity. When we got there, the Liturgy
was not over, so we peeked inside. Everything was about as it should
be. However, and I think this may partially answer Reginald's
question, the parishioners seemed to be rather "off" or "not quite",
if you know what I mean. I doubt if there were any Russians there at
all. However, the parishioners, Americans who either had been
received into that Church from outside the Roman Church or who had
been given a license to transfer from the Latin Rite to that Russian
Rite, were quite Russophile. Many were the Russian rubashkas on the
guys and many of the women/girls wore those showy satin dresses with
high onion-shaped and peaked hats with brilliants or pearls on them.
Father Vassily Vidakovich (a Serbian OCA Priest of blessed memory)
poked me in the side and said, "They all think they are Vasilissa
Prekrassnaya!"

There is also (or there was) a Russian Center at Fordham University
in the Bronx which had a really good bookstore where one could buy
excellent icon prints and Church Slavonic service books (published in
Rome and NOT Ukrainian Rite Byzantine stuff) which were reprints of
pre-revolutionary Russian Orthodox.publications, and that bookstore
was an offshoot of the Jesuit "Russian Catholic" mission.

I have, indeed, often said that it would be good if all the American
ORTHODOX Churches were as conscientious about following the Orthodox
worship traditions and monumental traditions as were (and are) the
"Russian Catholics." I have never ever said and I would never ever
say that I wish that more of "my" (Just that use of "my" relative to
a parish or clergyman is not me at all. I've never called a choir,
"my" choir, or a Deacon, "My" Deacon. I am careful to try and always
use "our". Having never been where near the Russian Catholic parish
in San Francisco, it would be foolish, indeed, to say that anyone
would be well advised to emulate their celebrations!

I recently had occasion to remember that El Segundo parish: on
Facebook someone referred to a very very peculiar congregation
calling itself a Church of the East. It's actually a slap-dash
creation with the most unauthentic (but garish and exotic) looking
vestments and so forth, married bishops. Typical American
self-starter (but they've no doubt got documents in a safe-deposit
box somewhere which PROVE that they are in The Apostolic Succession
(and we know what they mean by THAT!).

Well, "back in the day", at an Orthodoxy Sunday Vespers Spectacular
(at Spiros Skouras's St. Sophia Cathedral), Father Wilcox showed up,
back in the 70s. He mentioned that he had heard that there was a
"Church of the East" (i.e., Nestorian/Assyrian/Syrian) mission up on
Vine St. north of Hollywood Boulevard. He had sent "Father Tom"(the
Augustinian assistant I mentioned above) to investigate, to "sniff
them out" and see if they were "the real thing." Father went to that
Mission: It was called St. Herman of Alaska! When he spotted a man in
a clergy suit and shirt coming out, he asked, "When are the
services?", he got this answer, "Sorry, you're way too late! Too bad
you didn't come earlier, we had the blessing of the Harleys!"
Now, how's that for "too much information!"

Oh, yes, Exarch Leonid Fedorov DID have some successes, converts, in
his work in Petrograd among the intelligentsia and nobility.

+Tikhon, The Retired Bishop of San Francisco, Los Angeles, and the
West; The Orthodox Church in America

"I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I
girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from
the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none else. I
form the light and create darkness. I make peace and create evil: I
the Lord do all these things. (Isaiah XLV, 5-7)
_________________________________


Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,690
Likes: 8
Member
Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,690
Likes: 8
Brother Yuhannon,

The Syro-Malabar Church does have a very small counterpart in the "Chaldean-Syrian Church" (which is the Assyrian Church of the East in India headed by His Grace Metropolitan Mar Aprem). I think they have less than 90,000 faithful worldwide.

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,342
Likes: 1
Member
Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,342
Likes: 1
Shlomo aHO Yuhannon,

Thank you for the correction.

Fush BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,134
Likes: 1
Member
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,134
Likes: 1
Wow! It took twenty years, but the mystery is solved. I have the Black Marble on DVD. I thought it was a ROCOR parish that was used for the movie. The director called it a Russian Orthodox church in the extra features of the DVD. Thanks for clearing this up.

Is Father Wilcox still alive? Maybe a silly question considering the age of the movie, but I don't know how old he was at the time of filming.

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,028
A
Member
Member
A Offline
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,028
Originally Posted by Hieromonk Ambrose
A little background. The "Russian Catholic" idea was
born in the prayers of a Jesuit who became known as "Exarch Leonid
Fedorov.". There is a book with that title, probably available for
sale somewhere on line: it came out around the days before or during
Vatican II. Perhaps one could find it at the excellent
alibris.com This man, a Jesuit, and well-known in Petrograd
intellectual circles at the time,was convinced that if the Roman
Church were to initiate parishes, missions, etc., that followed the
Typikon exactly as the *****Russian***** Orthodox Church did,
unencumbered with the special baggage of the Unia and West
Ukrainian/Rusyn particularities, some of them deliberate
latinizations emanating from the "Congregation of Eastern
Rites", and clearly separate from and NOT responsible to that
congregations, then a considerable portion of the educated Russian
populace would be open to worshipping in those Churches and be more
open to the idea of union with Rome, conversion. Fedorov had a
terrible time with the forces of that Congregation of Eastern Rites,
especially when he insisted that Cardinal Scheptitski and what
Fedorov considered to be "Ukrainian" (his quotes) Catholics would
have NOTHING to do with such a mission and vice versa. Exarch Leonid
Fedorov was among the clergy who were tried and executed in Petrograd
along with our St. Benjamin and those with him. The Russian Catholic
mission and missionaries that were able to escaped to the Russian Far
East.

Sigh!

The Blessed Leonid Fedorov was not a Jesuit.

Andrei Sheptytsky (not Scheptitski) was never made a cardinal. I guess the spelling could be forgiven though, since the French Benedictines of Clairval spell it as Cheptitzky.

I have always been under the impression that Met. Andrei was very friendly with, and supportive of, Leonid Fedorov and the latter's devotion to Russian Orthodox liturgical traditions. And the Vatican was certainly friendly to Fedorov's ideas as well.

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,520
Likes: 10
G
Member
Member
G Offline
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,520
Likes: 10
Your Grace,

Father, bless!

Thank you very much for your reply!

With respect, I would like to make one correction to what you wrote: Blessed Exarch Leonid was not a Jesuit. He did make his profession of the Catholic faith in the mother church of the Jesuit order, Il Gesu in Rome and went to a seminary run by the Jesuits, but never became an official member of the Jesuit order.

Blessed Leonid is quoted as saying: "You know how much I love the Jesuits, but their ideal (to unite contemplation with action) is not within my means."

May Our Lord bless you.

Sincerely,

Griego Catolico


Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,520
Likes: 10
G
Member
Member
G Offline
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,520
Likes: 10
In fact, it is believed that the Servant of God Andrei Sheptytsky ordained Blessed Leonid as a bishop. This was never officially confirmed although a photograph exists that clearly shows him in the vestments of a bishop.

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090
Likes: 16
Global Moderator
Member
Global Moderator
Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090
Likes: 16
Originally Posted by Etnick
Is Father Wilcox still alive? Maybe a silly question considering the age of the movie, but I don't know how old he was at the time of filming.

Etnick,

Father Feodor (Wilcox) was, I believe, one of the first graduates of the Russicum to be ordained. He ministered initially to Russian refugees in Poland and Czechoslovakia, after being expelled from Russia on several occasions.

At the start of WWII, he traveled to China and founded a boarding school for the Russian refugees there before the need arose for the Russians in Harbin and Shanghai to escape to the Philippines. In 1950, he founded the Russian Center at Fordham, afterwards serving the Russian Catholic community in Brazil for about a decade.

He had returned to NYC when he was called to El Segundo to bury Father Fionan (Brannigan), SJ, its pastor and one of his pupils from Fordham. He reposed in 1985; he was in his late seventies at the time, I believe.

Memory eternal.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  theophan 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2024 (Forum 1998-2024). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 8.0.0