www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Multiple Jurisdictions - 'One Bishop, One City'

Fr Serge,

I have been looking more closely at Google Maps and see now that Saint-Boniface is in fact part of the City of Winnipeg, though according to Wikipedia historically the two were separate municipalities until the City of Winnipeg Act [en.wikipedia.org] came into force on Jan. 1, 1972.

While I realize the historical background is different, the situation in Winnipeg, with the archidiocese of Winnipeg on the west side of the Red River and the archdiocese of Saint-Boniface on the east side, reminds me a bit of London, with the archdiocese of Westminster on the north side of the River Thames and the archdiocese of Southwark on the south side.

There is another problem with using London as an example - it is 2 cities - the City of Westminster and the City of London.

Only 2 municipalities? I had thought there were mare than that. They must have united them while I was not looking. Dobnw here almost all of out metropolitan areas are divided up into a number of municipalities. We have the strange situation of having some cities so big that the are more desert than city and the size of some small countries. We tend to use political boundaries to use for diocesan boundaries. Each metroplitan province usually runs on state borders (former colonial ones formed before federation in 1901).

AHA - but there are still London Boroughs in the City of Westminster- it does get complicated here And to add to it there is a Lord Mayor and an elected Mayor

think it's safer to drop it before it gets too complicated

Actually, it is rather more complicated than that. The Greater London Authority (headed by the Mayor of London, Mr. Boris Johnson, and the London Assembly) consists of the Cities of London and Westminster (each with a Lord Mayor), the royal borough of Kingston upon Thames, the royal borough of Kensington and Chelsea, and 29 other London boroughs.

Anyway, there is no Catholic bishop of London, but there are Catholic archbishops of Westminster (a city) and Southwark (a borough).

(Source: Wikipedia [en.wikipedia.org])

Also, I think it is important to realize that the Catholic Church can do whatever it likes and does not need to refer to civil jurisdictions (though from time to time this may be the simplest and most practical course). In fact, you can have a bishop and a diocese without a city, properly speaking.

Just to name one example from Manitoba, the diocese of Churchill–Hudson Bay has its see in the small town of Churchill, Manitoba (pop. 923), but it mostly covers the territory of Nunavut. The work performed by the Oblates of Mary Immaculate (O.M.I.) in this vast Arctic region boggles the mind! See this link for more details: http://www.arcticomi.ca/

Here is a picture of the Catholic cathedral of the Holy Canadian Martyrs, Churchill, Manitoba [upload.wikimedia.org]

Reminds me of Professor Bogolepov, who taught canon law at St. Vladimir's. One day, he was lecturing on an episcopal See. In his usual dry-as-dust monotone Professor Bogolepov taught us that:

"An episcopal See must be a center of culture, economics, politics, education . . . a place like Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Wilkes-Barre . . ."

Fr. Serge

I'm having a vision of a monastery for retired bishops, composed of hundreds of dioceses, none reaching past the door of the bishop's cell . . .



hawk

Shlomo Pavel,

You are correct about Greater London. Here are the component parts:

1. City of London;
2. City of Westminster;
3. Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea;
4. London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham;
5. London Borough of Wandsworth;
6. London Borough of Lambeth;
7. London Borough of Southwark;
8. London Borough of Tower Hamlets;
9. London Borough of Hackney;
10. London Borough of Islington;
11. London Borough of Camden;
12. London Borough of Brent;
13. London Borough of Ealing;
14. London Borough of Hounslow;
15. London Borough of Richmond upon Thames;
16. Royal Borough of Kingston upon Thames;
17. London Borough of Merton;
18. London Borough of Sutton;
19. London Borough of Croydon;
20. London Borough of Bromley;
21. London Borough of Lewisham;
22. London Borough of Greenwich;
23. London Borough of Bexley;
24. London Borough of Havering;
25. London Borough of Barking and Dagenham;
26. London Borough of Redbridge;
27. London Borough of Newham;
28. London Borough of Waltham Forest;
29. London Borough of Haringey;
30. London Borough of Enfield;
31. London Borough of Barnet;
32. London Borough of Harrow; and
33. London Borough of Hillingdon.

Fush BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

This partly explains the use of the title "Richmond" by the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia - in that way, she avoids violating English law (by making use of a title already used by the Established Church) and avoids gratuitously offending the Anglicans. The other Orthodox and Greek-Catholics in England simply use titles outside the country (such as Thyateira).

The vision of all those bishops in one monastery reminds me of a gem of a dream.

A few years ago an Abbot was visiting a Benedictine monastery which does not encourage the ordination of the monks to the diaconate or presbyterate unless there is a specific need for the service of the monastic community. The visiting Abbot criticized this, saying that the ordination of as many priests as possible "augments the priesthood of Our Lord Jesus Christ". The resident Abbot over breakfast the following morning commented to the guest that he had had an interesting dream: all the monks were ordained to the episcopate and entered the chapel in procession, each one wearing the mitre and bearing the crozier - and was this not a lovely augmentation of the priesthood of Our Lord Jesus Christ?

Fr. Serge

I was just asked this question by a member of a 'list' i particpate on, and do not know the answer. Since you are speaking of Bishops and jurisdictions, can you answer this for him and myself I am sure it is not difficult, I just don't know.

He asked...

Some years ago in my studying about the Eastern Catholic Churches I ran across the Italo-Albanian/Italo-Greek Catholic Church that exists only in Southern Italia arround the area where my maternal grandparents came from. I later found out that there is an Italo-Greek Mission in NY City(Our Lady of Grace). I eventually got on their mailing list for their newsletter. I just got their latest issue. & I don't know why this didn't register before but there was this bit on the back page: "Since the Bishops of Our Lady of Grace Greek Catholic Mission are in Italy & Greece, we are under the omophor of the Roman Archbishop of New York, Edward Cardinal Egan."

Besides being surprized that it was Cardinal Egan & not 1 of the Eastern Catholic Bishops here in the USA that they were under, I was totally unfamiliar with the term "omophor". I can hazzard a guess, but I figured that it would be easier to ask you about the word. Also, any guesses why the set up with Egan & not a Byzantine Catholic Bishop besides the historical fact that in Italy they were always directly under the Latin Patriarcite?

The omophorion (or omofor) is the vestments (usually in brocade; sometimes in white wool) which a bishop wears around his shoulders - one who belongs to bishop's "jurisdiction" is often said to be "under his omophorion".

For reasons best known to itself, Rome decided that Byzantine jurisdictions in the US and Canada (and elsewhere in the diaspora later) should be divided by ethnic origin. Hence we are "blessed" with a plethora of jurisdictions in the Western Hemisphere. Lucky us.

Fr. Serge

Sadly the various ethnic groups have got themsleves involved in politics. Here in Australia the UGCC heavily pushed Ukrainian nationalism. Other Greek Catholics could drop of a cliff and get lost, as the UGCC had no interest in anyone who was not Ukrainian (Westies were the most pure). Instructions to go to the "Australian Church" (term still in use) were common. The Russian Catholic Centre was treated as a joke. The various ethnic groups (Russians, Ossetians, Georgians etc etc) who later formed the Russian Centre had been basically pushed out after originally worshipping at the UGCC cathedral. When Bulgarian Greek Catholics arrived after the fall of the Communists, none of the established Byzantine Churches gave them a thought and they have disapeared of the map. There are Hungarian and Ruthenian Greek Catholics here but again you would not know it. So in short no one trusts the Eastern Churches to look after anyone who is not of their particular national group. Things are changing here with the UGCC but it has happened a bit too late for many people. So I think we will continue to have new Eparchies covering the same geography created.

Sounds like Orthodoxy.

Shlomo Pani Rose,


My guest about why Our Lady of Grace being under the Roman Bishop of New York, is that he can afford to take care of the mission. Especially since it only meets once a month.

The only active Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church that is fully active outside of Italy; Our Lady Of Wisdom Byzantine Catholic Church [ourladyofwisdom.net] right here in Las Vegas is under the authority of the Byzantine Catholic Eparchy of Van Nuys [eparchy-of-van-nuys.org] so maybe if Our Lady of Grace became more active then they would be transfered to a Byzantine authority.

Of course I would hope that the Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church would appoint an exarch to help develop their Church here, as well as maybe help some Italian-Americans/Canadians find their historic roots.

Fush BaShlomo,
Yuhannon