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I think that this is a fair analysis as I see it, though I am not opposed to using the term "Purgatory".

From Wikipedia on Purgatory:

AMM,

Which post did you want me to look at?

Anyway, I can promise you, what I enumerated above is the ONLY thing any (and every!) Catholic is required to believe about Purgatory/Final Theosis/Whatever You Want To Call It.

And, Joe, I don't have time to do anything but glance quickly over your link above, but if that essay ascribes any dogma to Purgatory beyond what I mentioned above, it is probably setting up a straw man to knock down. Or, at the very least, it takes issue with certain theologoumena which have been popular in Latin Catholicism for the last few centuries (theologoumena to which I myself ascribe!).

Alexis

In the other thread this was quoted


Which means Purgatory is not simply a place of cleansing of sin, but a place of temporal punishment. That's why there are indulgences. So I think there is a little more to it.

Dearest brother in Christ, Joe,

With all due respect, and please do not take offense, but I feel like I have read enough articles concerning this in the past ten years to make me blue in the face!

I have read articles about toll houses by Orthodox, and articles refuting toll houses as heretical by other Orthodox; I have read articles about forecourts, and articles against the idea of forecourts, I have read articles about purgatory, and articles against purgatory, etc., etc., etc....ad nauseum to the point that I can understand why many faithful just give up and don't understand the need for prayer for the dead, or lose their faith. Too much scholarly material discussing matters of faith can sometimes negate the real essence of faith, which is a deep felt longing to practice it in the soul.

Therefore, what I have taken out of all the articles and disertations within Orthodoxy, without Orthodoxy and against Catholicism in matters of the afterlife, is not differences, but the very real and profound need for prayer for the dead. Reading the lives of saints has also brought me closer to that very traditional Orthodox belief. I feel the need and obligation to earnestly pray for the dead with every ounce of my being, especially since so many who have passed on, Orthodox and non-Orthodox, have no one to offer up a prayer on behalf of their soul.

I pray for those I know and sometimes those I don't know. If I hear of a death of anyone, I immediately ask that the Lord forgive their sins, just as the old timers did in Greece. From all the material, both Catholic and Orthodox, I have come to understand the refreshment that the soul feels from prayer on its behalf. I have heard of such profound prayer that saints have seen or had visions of their loved ones ascend to heaven from a place which was not of heaven...for instance, St. Xenia of Petersburg, who became a fool for Christ for most of her lifetime to attone, for the sin of a non-repentant sudden death of her husband, in his place.

So, rather than read and speculate about the greatest mystery there is, which is death and the afterlife, I rather continue in heartfelt prayer for the dead, especially during the first forty days when the soul is around us, to give the names of my beloved deceased to be commemorated at the holy altar for proskomide and at all Saturdays of the souls, and to offer the requisite memorial services at appropriate anniversaries...for, I am sure that devout and pious believing Catholics and Orthodox alike WILL agree that it is the most important act of love we can make for our departed loved ones and all our friends and acqaintances in Christ.

In Christ, our salvation,
Alice

It is high time that the Catechism of the Eastern Catholic Church made its appearance. I understand that its co-ordinator the UGCC Bishop Peter Stasiuk submitted it to the Eastern bishops for comment last year.

It will resolve these questions about the EC belief in Purgatory. Even it it prefers to sidestep contentious issues of belief by simply not mentioning them - that in itself will be a statement.

Well, I have to admit to being stumped! Good point. It is odd that it seems to contradict everything I've ever read on the subject.

Alexis

Fr Deacon Daniel

I didn't exactly understand your question, but what I meant simply, was that among the laity and probably among a significant percentage of clergymen, the belief in Purgatory is probably identical with the view held by most Latin Rite Catholics.

On a humorous note, it recently dawned on me, that while I'd be considered a Latinizer on this forum, at my UGCC parish, I'm one of the few people who actually calls the liturgy, the liturgy, and not the mass.

Which brings up yet another question, when one dies one leaves the temporal world. How then are temporal punishments meeted out in purgatory? That never made sense to me. It would seem the Church in its definition of purgatory was trying to move away from medieval Latin theological opinion but fell back into when trying to define indulgences. I think they need to forget the temporal punishment/treasury of merit stuff and simply state that prayer for the dead is effective and leave it at that.

Fr. Deacon Lance

An important question! I believe this was also central to the position of St. Mark of Ephesus at Florence.



So they need to actually just wholesale dump things from the catechism?

That is an interesting question.

Dear Friends,

In the Kyivan tradition, Purgatory is not something that is foreign or "Roman Catholic" - St Peter Mohyla and the Kyivan Academicians taught it and defended it even when the Orthodox Patriarchs refused to let it stand in the Mohyla Orthodox Catechism.

Any effort to establish the equation "Belief in Purgatory = Roman Catholicism/not true Eastern Christian theology" will fail in this instance.

The Orthodox Church in western Ukraine have a multitude of "Vidpusty" or "Otpusty" which mean more than simply "pilgrimages."

I've asked for an explanation of this here before and none are, as yet, forthcoming.

If someone could explain what that word means and where it comes from - that would be helpful.

As for "place of cleansing" and "temporal punishment" - well, anyone who has read about the penances of the great Orthodox monastic saints will have a hard time understanding their efforts aimed at self-cleansing to be anything but punitive.

I'd rather go for some humane indulgences, thank you very much!

Alex

That says it all. Purgatory is not part of the Orthodox tradition. So stop trying to force it on us Ukrainian Orthodox. Just because one man, whose mother was a Hungarian Roman Catholic and who was greatly influenced by Polish Roman Catholic culture and education promoted it does not mean that the whole church did.
Your so-called "Kyivan tradition" does not include doctrine & dogma. All us Orthodox are united in faith. That is why I can go to any Orthodox church and receive communion but you as a Catholic cannot.

I bolded what I think is the important part. I think the simple point is that within Orthodoxy there is no parallel stream of "Kievan theology" that is distinct from what the rest of the church teaches. This is not simply a matter of retrospect (and the period now is regarded in every source I've ever read as one of intense Latinization) because the hierarchs even at the time recognized why this belief was not compatible with the Orthodox understanding. Can I say this was not present, no I could not, just as one couldn't say that other things weren't at the same time distorted (iconography, music, etc.)


I've never heard those terms as anything but meaning pilgrimage or spiritual undertaking. In your second example the Monks would be enduring their own "punishment" if you want to use that term, and it is while they're in their earthly journey. That is distinctly different from purification and temporal punishment in the next life, which is really comes down to the understanding of Palamite theology. Metropolitan Hierotheos has a good summary here

http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b24.en.life_after_death.05.htm

I would kindly request that our posts try to be a bit more calm, and by being so, they will sound more respectful when we are addressing each other.

Alex has written to me to assure me that his intention is NOT to force the concept of Purgatory on anyone.

As long as I have known Dr. Roman on this forum, I have not known him to force anything on anyone!

Plainly put, Dr. Alex Roman knows alot, and presents his historical knowledge as a venue of possible interest in the overall scheme of conciliatory discussion of the traditions of the East. He also enjoys sharing his knowledge of various ecclesiastical tidbits.

As for purgatory, toll houses, foretastes and the like, let's just say that we will all find out about it in more depth when our time comes! In the meantime, no one knows for sure.

Alice, Moderator

Christ is in our midst!! He is and always will be!!



Permit me to echo my esteemed sister, Alice. The stridency exhibited in this post is not the tone we use on this forum when we address one another. There is no need to abusive about the Eucharist, even as the members here lament the fact that serious theological issues still separate those who derive their faith from the common Apostolic Tradition.

I have had long discussions with Alex about these issues and much of the period that Orthodox Christians lament as a period of serious adoption of Latin practices and explanations for the Faith came about as practical reactions to some very real historical events taking place at the time. The shifting borders in the region where modern Ukraine lies suddenly placed Orthodox Christians within countries ruled by Catholics. Pressure was surely brought to bear at some level to make Easterners conform.

But there was more than that. Young people were attracted to things and thought Western and, sadly IMHO, Orthodoxy looked to some of them as Eastern and backward. That is not to say that it was or is, but that seemed to be the perception that the bishops, including Metropolitan Peter Mohyla faced. The question, then, is whether one sits back and watches ones young people abandon the Faith or if one presents the Faith in terms that make it compete with the prevailing culture's Catholicism. I am not defending anything; just trying to state what seems to be the historical situation.

As to if and when these Latin parctices and explanations should be abandoned, that is the stuff for discussion among Orthodox and Eastern Catholics. Many purists insist that it be rooted out and burned out, if you will. OTOH, while many of these things may not completely conform to strict Slavic Orthodox practice, one might proceed with pastoral caution because the faith of "these little ones" is often put in a vice that can destroy. I have seen parallels in modern Latin practice where the battle to root out what have been perceived to be dated practices has resulted in many elderly people being destroyed in their faith.

Working where I do and with the situations I do, I have learned that many times one ought to gently approach people where they are. Many of us--and I'm often not so sure about myself--have what could be called "Kitchen Sink" Christianity: a little knowledge mixed up at home with parents' teaching, some ethnic practices, and some plain old "filling in the blanks with our own opinion."

Again, these areas have been a bone of contention for centuries, but the Latin Church has made it clear that this particular doctrine of hers is not something that is a sine qua non for unity. That it keeps coming up time and again--like a bad case of the flu--makes me wonder about the reasons for its resurrection. Let's get a bit more charity into our responses to one another.

In Christ,

BOB